Why don't more auto-x'ers road race?

[Built-By-Bones]

Interesting thread on sccaforums.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/395184.aspx

It would be good if some current road racers who used to auto-x (or still do) would post to that thread sharing their expenses.

Cost seems to be issue # 1, but I believe auto-x'ers assume that road racing is out of their reach without knowing there are classes like Spec7 available to them.

Grant

[tronic]

Cost is a big factor
including entry fees, safety gear, consumables, car prep, and assuming the risk of losing the car anytime in wheel to wheel racing. The risk is still present, but much less, in any track day, TT, or even autox.

It's not an option at all for those of us who can only afford 1 car and don't think daily driving with a full roll cage is a good idea.

I'll stick to my autox, TT's, and open track days until I win the lottery :D

[SuperWhiteGT4]

I'm with Kelly on almost every front:

Autocross costs me less than a grand a year for upkeep and entry costs. That's about all I can afford in addition to routine maintenance.

I'd do open track days too, but there's no way to install a safe rollbar into my car without cutting out the soft top, and since I'm in a convertible, it's mandatory.

[delirium45]

some interesting arguments in there...

i, for one, still dream of becoming the next Mark Foust (transforming my autox car into a track car), and still be able to do both.

however, i lack basic requirements to move to the next level:
1) tow vehicle
2) lots of (one or both) time/money
3) a family that agrees with my desires

[Mr. Sociable]

Too many barriers to entry. If I want to autox, I throw on a helmet, put some numbers on the car, and I'm there. Sure, a lot of us take it a lot further, but it's VERY accessible.

If I want to road race, I need to go to school. This requires a car that I either buy, build, or rent. All are expensive choices. Then I can race. Now I need a long-term car solution. Even if I've got a well prepped autox car sitting in my driveway, I still am several thousand dollars away from being able to turn my first wheel on a track. I have to cage the car. I have to get a new seat and belts. I have to get personal safety equipment. Etc.


This is it for me. I realize that road racing is more cost effective in $/minute of seat time, or $/mile of racing, but the upfront costs are too high for me to justify and I don't have the space for everything I need as a college student.

[ncaruso]

As someone who is working his way into the road race scene, I agree money is a factor. Though looking back at what I have spent to prep the car for autocross, its really not that much more. I do however run in a modified class. Like all things, there is an initial investment involved. There are more "per event" costs, but there are also more per event rewards. (contingencies etc.)

I think the idea was a little daunting at first as well, but once you get out there and see some of the same faces, things fall (snowball) into place, and your off and running before you know it.

I agree there are a few steps you need to take before you are ready, but they aren’t difficult, and they are very rewarding. If you are worried about setting up a second car for the track, there are a few places in the area that rent race cars too. Once you have your license, you can show up and drive.

For those reading this who are on the fence about coming out for a TT event and like the idea of going road racing. Come out and at least watch

[PEZi303]

The big reason I don't do it is because my truck is my only vehicle. It's not exactly a road racing car for a few reasons:
Brakes wouldn't last
No power (i know its about the experience... but I want to have a little power out there to have a good time)
tires wouldn't last (long enough for me anyway)

Other than that I'd love to try it... oh, besides the cost of course! I have to save up just to autocross so road racing is out of the question. :D

So... If I had another car that would be more road racing material... and a bigger budget... SURE!

[LaCount]

I'll be doing some laps at HPR on Monday...so I'll be there in due time:cool:

[cojsl]

Cost is a big factor
including entry fees, safety gear, consumables, car prep, and assuming the risk of losing the car anytime in wheel to wheel racing. The risk is still present, but much less, in any track day, TT, or even autox.

It's not an option at all for those of us who can only afford 1 car and don't think daily driving with a full roll cage is a good idea.


+1
Until I'm ok with taking a total loss on the daily driver, and the inconvenience of replacing it, or can afford to "throw away" a dedicated race car, road racing is out. I'd comment on the extra personal physical risk, but I drive a lot for work, and some days on the road are certainly more dangerous than a day a the track.

[BoulderG]

Having made the step -
Car cost and upkeep can be managed by choosing your class. Tires are the biggie.
The biggest cost was the infrastructure to handle a non-streetable track car: tow vehicle, trailer, and storage space for those plus the race car and tires, parts, etc. Folks in apartments probably can't do it.
After that, the biggest chunk is the non-racing weekend cost - entry, travel, food, hotel, etc. Road Racing isn't much more than Time Trials, but a whole lot more than autocross/rallycross.
When all is said and done, I'm really really really happy to be racing!

[fast_eddie_72]

The biggest cost was the infrastructure to handle a non-streetable track car: tow vehicle, trailer, and storage space for those plus the race car and tires, parts, etc.

That would be a truck, trailer, a new garage and, of course, the car. That's kinda a lot.

[Chris Gladu]

in addition to all the other arguments, i lack any sort of intercooling, and the way trd/vortech designed the blower, front mounts are out of the question. that and underhood temps would probably warp the shaft and melt the bearings on it just like what happens to most people just driving around town. score one for trd.

[GingerGSR]

in addition to all the other arguments, i lack any sort of intercooling, and the way trd/vortech designed the blower, front mounts are out of the question. that and underhood temps would probably warp the shaft and melt the bearings on it just like what happens to most people just driving around town. score one for trd.

I love my VTEC!!! :D

[ncaruso]

I Don't plan on letting a lack of trailer and tow vehicle limit me

[Chris Gladu]

pssh vtec= all the lag and still no boost lol unless of course its boosted with i think yours might be...

[Chris Gladu]

vtec- virtuously torqueless economy car :D

[GingerGSR]

pssh vtec= all the lag and still no boost lol unless of course its boosted with i think yours might be...

Nope, all stock (JDM stock, but stock).

[Solo2GS]

The biggest cost was the infrastructure to handle a non-streetable track car: tow vehicle, trailer, and storage space for those plus the race car and tires, parts, etc. Folks in apartments probably can't do it.
After that, the biggest chunk is the non-racing weekend cost - entry, travel, food, hotel, etc. Road Racing isn't much more than Time Trials, but a whole lot more than autocross/rallycross.


Bingo!

Having gone from Auto-x to track junky and back to Auto-x again - the high speed fun is just not within my budget anymore.

When I started hitting the track more I got a tow vehicle and a trailer as driving the car too and from (more so the from when things went bad) the track started becoming more challenging, and now an off-site storage space. The truck payment, the trailer payment, the monthly storage fee... + insurance for all! 10MPG to and from events...

Of course I still have all those expenses from choices I made in the past, and many many days I wish I didn't, but the cost per event whether it be Auto-X, TT, Road racing, or a fun track day sure add up to be a lot more than the entry fee when you tally all the costs involved...

Although I would love to be on the high speed track more, my wallet just can't support it of late... I support the TT effort, but the cost for me to go out to HPR for half a day and compete against my friends or myself is far less than the TT cost with less track time.

I know I have been spoiled from California track days that cost $125 for 4+ hours of seat time, but the argument of cost versus seat time is still important to me when it comes to the high speed track.

[BobDixon]

Having gone from Auto-X to TT to road racing (and now coming back for some more auto-x) I think it's all in what you think is fun. I race a vintage Formula Vee. Car cost about 6K with a fresh motor. Tires will run about $400 for the season. I tow it with my BMW. One guy tows with a diesel golf, another with a Mini Cooper. Engine rebuild is about 1000 every 4 years or so. Brakes were about $50. RMVR fees for a weekend is usually $220 for two warm up sessions, 1 qualifying, and 3 races. Really is a lot of seat time.

Yeah, it adds up. Even for the cheapest class. But holy cow is it fun. The people are incredible.

In order of what I think would keep auto-x'ers away:
1. Cost
2. Risk to both car and driver
3. No desire to scare the crap out of yourself at high speed. Auto-x is enough.

-Bob

[BarryOtt]

For me, I waited until I'm able to afford it before I attempted to start RR, but the time commitment for me is just too much :( Another point that frustrates me is the disparity between car rule sets in AX and RR. Beyond Stock class, it's unfortunate that the rules aren't similar enough that building a competitive AX car doesn't get you a competitive RR car *TOO*. I suspect that a lot more people would RR and AX if they could use the same car???? Yeah, there's a couple exceptions, but....

[docwyte]

All the basic stuff keeps me away from road racing...

I'd need to buy a car I feel I can throw away if I auger into a wall. I need to spend the money to make it reliable and safe (cage, seats, HANS, etc). I need to get a tow vehicle, a trailer and a place to store all three.

I need to get the time and funds available to do all the above.

Even right now in time trials my car isn't setup properly safety wise. I really ought to be running fixed back seats and a rollbar, but then I can't carry my daughter in my back seat.

I'm working on some sort of easily removable rollbar, but unfortunately that will boil down to funds...

[Mark C]

My reasons mirror many already mentioned with a new one perhaps.

1. I am afraid I will like it too much. Which leads to...
2. Time available
3. Another car I can throw away if necessary (EM car would take a lot to make Track-worthy)
4. Money for all the above.

I fully intend to get there someday but I have to carefully choose my hobbies with the limited time I have abailable.

-Mark

[usakubko]

<<< car too slow and lack of funds to get a faster one :o

[SubaDrew]

spent over $3k last season just on tires, entries and hotels for autocross (and that's with 1 "free" set of tires). only upgrade I got in was a steering rack bushing.

Oh. And I only have 1 car.

[66stang347]

spent over $3k last season just on tires, entries and hotels for autocross (and that's with 1 "free" set of tires). only upgrade I got in was a steering rack bushing.

Oh. And I only have 1 car.

Yeah but you should be karting which is just as much fun as road racing and even cheaper than autox (it really is)

[Goku]

Biggest reason I don't. The roll bar issue. I'd prefer not to have to mod the car like to to road race. Money while a problem, would probably just be solved by only attending 4-6 races a yr instead of 12 autox.

[sportmax]

Sames reasons as everyone else.
no Money
no Time
no truck or trailer

But main reason i don't want to smash up my super rare car(don't want to race anything else). I would Love to get into TT and do plan on it.

[Matt Leicester]

I'm not trying to be snotty or insulting, so please no one be offended, but another question is why is there a prevailing thought that autocrossers should all want to road race? Autocrossing in an incredible sport in itself, it does not need to be a stepping stone to anything else. I enjoy the get it right, get it now challenge, I enjoy being comfortable with driving a car at my limit, no need to hold anything back for fear of consequences. I enjoy having my fate in my own hands without needing to worry if the guy next to me is having a bad day, hasn't maintained his car, whatever may leave my future in hands I have no control over. Pylon smudges may be a pain to get off, but that's not much of a concern in the grand scheme of things! Just my two cents.

I did greatly enjoy Trials when we had them at Second Creek, but frankly a road course with a 3,000 foot straight doesn't do much for me. I freely admit to driving gutless cars, but I still have never seen the appeal to long straights. If I want to go drag racing, I'll go drag racing. If I want to go around turns, I want a lot of turns packed in a small space! Oh, and I generally don't go drag racing...

Matt Leicester

[GingerGSR]

I sort of found AX by accident. My original plan was to build a car to take out to Second Creek a couple times a month and have fun. Once I found out SCR had closed I had to find some other outlet for my need for speed. I knew about the SCCA so I looked into racing there and also found NASA. The NASA program seemed to be sort of a free-for-all so I chose to run in the SCCA. I’d never heard of AX but it seemed like a good place to start. Once I got into it I found it was a lot of fun and a great place to learn about car setup & driving.

I've always had road racing as my ultimate goal so anything I did to my car I did with an eye towards that end. Once the time came to take the plunge I was ready. Actually, I'm way ahead of schedule thanks to the SCCA for putting on the drivers school last July at half price and to the Spec-7 guy's for putting up their cars for rent at a very reasonable price and the SCCA rebating us $200 back on the rental fee. The clock on my "5 Year Plan" to go road racing started running on January 1st, 2006.

One of the things I find with AX is I get very frustrated because I know I can go faster/drive better than I do. But just when I get a course down I’m done. With TT/RR, when I make a mistake I know I’ll be right back to the same spot to try it again in a minute or two.

Reading all the posts in the thread on SCCAForums.com, a lot of people seem to think RR is boring. My thinking is if you’re bored, you’re not going fast enough. When I get out of the car after a TT session I’m shaking every bit as much as after a killer AX run. Even in my car running down Highway Straight at HPR, I have just enough time to run through the gears into 4th, check mirrors, check gauges, take a few deep breaths, maybe sinch up my harness before it’s time to look for the braking point into T-4, down-shift and turn in. There’s nothing like hitting it right and sailing through there at 70-80 MPH (At La Junta there’s a 100 MPH sweeper (T-1) at the end of the main straight. Boring..? NOT!!!)

It just comes down to “to each his own” I guess. I “like” AX, I “LOVE” running on the track. I for one, plan to do both as much as I can this coming season.

[kc0stp]

1. Money, currently a broke teenager looking at collage in a year and a half so definatly no spare change

2. Politics, Ill leave this up to individual interpertation

Figuring I had the money and I could bypass the politics Id probbly be racing F500 starting tomorrow.

[shoeish]

I used to Auto-x. I did it because I could drive down, change tire pressures, race, and drive home. Easy, cheap, and fun. Especially when I took rides in everybody's car.

I now only do the TT's in my M3, then I "buy a seat" in an endurance car from some buddies out east in a 24 hours of Lemons car.

It is expensive, but I believe the seat time per dollar is an incredible value. I got 8 hours of seat time last race at Nelson Ledges, and normally get 6 hours or so.

[lmichael]

I spent a few years road racing. I've also done some rallying, and also a couple of years racing stock cars. In the end, I keep coming back to autocrossing.

For me, it's the time commitment involved, both at the venue, and away. In competitive road racing (and I know it could be different, but...) you show up at the track on Friday and you leave late Sunday night. That's great if you have a job that allows that, and a family that supports it (or comes along), but that's not my situation. And, when you're not at the venue, you are either working on the car to make it faster, or repairing what needs fixing from the previous weekend. It ends up being nearly a 7 day a week job.

With autocrossing (at least if you don't travel to away events), the time commitment is significantly less. You get to go to the event in the morning, and are typically home to share dinner with the family. You don't have to repair much from the prior event, so if you want, you can just wait until the next autocross and do it all over again.

As for the fun/thrill factor... In my opinion, there is truly nothing that beats wheel-to-wheel competition! The problem in road racing is that often, you're just out doing laps with no other class participant in sight. Although fun, it can get a little mundane after a while.

In autocrossing, although there is no wheel-to-wheel competition, there is almost always head-to-head competition! This helps satiate the competitive desire we have, yet allows us to maintain the life balance that many of us also seek.

[BlueVelocity]

Carbon fenders, carbon doors on the way. I don't want to rub fenders honestly. This is why i'm running in ChumpCar. Super cheap, all but 'throw away' cars. I road race, just not in the blue car. :D

[showmedata]

I road race, just not in the blue car. :D

Uh oh... I'm gonna have to put a Garage Queen Tiara on that thing soon.:D

[docwyte]

My biggest compliant with AX is the time spent vs seat time quotient stinks.

To spend 10 hours standing around in the hot sun on concrete for maybe 6 minutes of seat time (if you're lucky) just doesn't appeal to me anymore.

[arniecoleman]

My biggest compliant with AX is the time spent vs seat time quotient stinks.

To spend 10 hours standing around in the hot sun on concrete for maybe 6 minutes of seat time (if you're lucky) just doesn't appeal to me anymore.

If you're standing around all day, you're doing it wrong!

Between helping with set-up, prepping the car, taking course walks, eating breakfast, re-checking the car, scoping out the competitors, catching up with my friends who i haven't seen since last event, re-rechecking the car, eating lunch, taking rides with others (when allowed), sharing advice with newbies and veterans, telling war stories, following event results, checking the car just one more time, taking my runs, taking fun runs and helping with tear-down, I hardly have a moment to spare!

[fast_eddie_72]

If you're standing around all day, you're doing it wrong!


I'm with Arnie on this one. Autocross isn't *just* about the four minutes you spend on course at speed. It's a strategy event too. You start "racing" as soon as you set foot on course in the morning. And hanging out with all your autocross buddies is a big part of the event.

Take care,

Ed

[cojsl]

My biggest compliant with AX is the time spent vs seat time quotient stinks.

The rational part of me understands this.
The irrational part loves Autocross because it's a (relatively safe) adrenaline sport, like skydiving and drag racing- much time and expense for short blasts of pure excitement.

All the great people in our region really make the down time something to look forward to also.

I'm curious- For those that are familiar, do drag racers and sky divers complain about "seat time" when they are "bench racing"?

[SuperWhiteGT4]

I'm curious- For those that are familiar, do drag racers and sky divers complain about "seat time" when they are "bench racing"?

I wonder. $50+ for a day out at the strip with only a guarantee of a few warm up runs plus one actual run, which could be anywhere between 7 and 14 seconds.

Worse than autocross in terms of seat time, but I bet the complaints aren't as frequent as autocrossing. I've found autocross to be rather polarizing to a lot of racer-types.

[mannix]

plus one actual run, which could be anywhere between 7 and 14 seconds.

1/8th mile, right?

Clearly not an FSP driver:).



Iain

[Matt Leicester]

7 -14 seconds is the 200 foot time, right?:rolleyes:

Matt Leicester

my 600 cc snowmobiles have more horsepower than my "race" truck... And I haven't even breathed on the snowmobile motors yet!

[Dylans]

I also think it is BS to compare a minute of AutoX time to a minute of track time.

-Dylan, who is planning on getting into Road Racing when he considers "only $2500" to actually be a small amount of money.

[PEZi303]

Clearly not an FSP driver:).


I think my truck would run sub 20seconds in the 1/4.............. :eek:

[mannix]

I came within ~.2seconds of getting beaten by a truck at Bandimere in my FSP Rabbit.

Not a truck like yours, or Matt's, or even a diesel smoke-machine.

A semi. Like a Kenworth. With a bed. Probably a TV. Maybe a sink. Pretty sure he pulled in, unhooked the trailer, drove it to the staging lane.

That'd have been REALLY embarrassing, as if "I got into the 17s!" was not bad enough.



Iain

[sportmax]

I wonder. $50+ for a day out at the strip with only a guarantee of a few warm up runs plus one actual run, which could be anywhere between 7 and 14 seconds.

Worse than autocross in terms of seat time, but I bet the complaints aren't as frequent as autocrossing. I've found autocross to be rather polarizing to a lot of racer-types.

Drag racing and autox are pretty similure. Lots of time at the track with little seat time. But if you treat the day right then both are a blast. If you go in thinking you will just stand around all day being bored with seconds of seat time then you will be bored!!
I like Arnies answer. Thats exactly why i like autox, im constantly busy during the day!!!

[PEZi303]

That'd have been REALLY embarrassing, as if "I got into the 17s!" was not bad enough.




You got into the 17's :eek: :eek: :eek:

I think he fastest truck like mine without internal work runs in the 18's still... MAYBE there's one out there somewhere that runs in the 17's at sea level or something but I've yet to find it (without internal work of course).

[GingerGSR]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/40319050_84e1447abf.jpg?v=0

[ncaruso]

You can rub that out

[sportmax]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/40319050_84e1447abf.jpg?v=0

That will Definitely Buff Out :rolleyes:

[kc0stp]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/30/40319050_84e1447abf.jpg?v=0
Little bit of duct tape and itll buff right out :)

[fast_eddie_72]

That'll bu... never mind.

[usakubko]

The light still works, who needs the rest. Legal way to trim weight :p

[nasa-rm]

The NASA program seemed to be sort of a free-for-all so I chose to run in the SCCA.

Can you elaborate?

[John Scheier]

My pockets are not deep enough to enjoy (yes, enjoy) w2w racing.... so Time-Trials is about as close as I plan to get.

I will be expanding my horizon this year and running with NASA. Got my membership and plan on attending the first HPDE they have and (hopefully) will be signed off for time-trials. Maybe even volunteer to instruct if they have a need.

Gotta say that the local SCCA group (or should I say, certain members of the local SCCA group?) pretty much chapped-my-a$$ this year with their comments on the PDX / Time Trials program. I'll leave it at that, but the sour taste still remains.

[GingerGSR]

Can you elaborate?
That was just my first impression when I read up on the different programs NASA has. I know now that it's not that way.
Like John, I'm planning to run with NASA in the future to have a larger pool of dates and venues to choose from.

[nasa-rm]

Thanks Mark. Just making sure we aren't screwing something up.

[John Scheier]

Thanks Mark. Just making sure we aren't screwing something up.

Nope... ya'll are good until you let ^ him :)

[EGbeater]

Having gone from Auto-X to TT to road racing (and now coming back for some more auto-x) I think it's all in what you think is fun. I race a vintage Formula Vee. Car cost about 6K with a fresh motor. Tires will run about $400 for the season. I tow it with my BMW. One guy tows with a diesel golf, another with a Mini Cooper. Engine rebuild is about 1000 every 4 years or so. Brakes were about $50. RMVR fees for a weekend is usually $220 for two warm up sessions, 1 qualifying, and 3 races. Really is a lot of seat time.

Yeah, it adds up. Even for the cheapest class. But holy cow is it fun. The people are incredible.

In order of what I think would keep auto-x'ers away:
1. Cost
2. Risk to both car and driver
3. No desire to scare the crap out of yourself at high speed. Auto-x is enough.

-Bob

I've always assumed that a casual road-racing season HAS to be more expensive than a really serious, mostly-local autox campaign, but after reading the above bolded statements, and considering what I'll be spending in 2010 for "necessary HP mods" for the Evo AND the budget for Hoosier A6s, I have to wonder.

BTW Bob, I seem to enjoy scaring the crap out of myself both in parking lots and out at HPR... it's a curse; being too stupid to be too afraid.

[ncaruso]

Travel, entry fees and tires alone cost me over $2000 for the last Autocross season.

[nasa-rm]

How much are typical auto-x fees per day here?

[ncaruso]

$30-35. Tour events are significantly more.

[SalineCO5]

Getting someone to split the cost with you helps a lot for any of this.
Find a co-driver. My brother and I plan on doing it as we start into PDX/TT this season. I don't mind sharing time if it keeps costs down. Should even work for RR assuming you aren't bent on doing every event in a season.

[MrPickles]

If/when i start doing more track time, it will more than likely be in a car that is not an AX car. Too much money to put into the Stick to get it ready for the track. Plus corvettes are not cheap to fix, when hitting things. I know with my 'on the limit' driving.... spinning the car in AX isn't bad (actually fun)... spinning the car going 100+ mph = ground human for Pickles.

I did enjoy track time at Second Creek, back in the days. I enjoy'ed driving the Nurburgring this past April. Track time is fun, having the car and money is key for me.

Autocross is a great way to spend time with great people, have fun driving, and keeping myself busy.

RR ... well ...perhaps in the future but not at this time.

$/Seat time is correct...RR is more cost effective...but by no means cheaper than autocross.

I think its takes more skill to autocross than to road race/TT. Tracks are static and never change.... 10-20 years driving the same track, makes you good. With autocross the course/track changes everytime. Someone who can truely be fast, only driving it 3 times... is a great driver.

[Matt Leicester]

I think it was my hero Niki Lauda who said autocrossing takes more skill and road racing takes more bravery. I think I would agree, though I think successful autocrossing takes a lot of bravery and road racing well takes a lot of skill.

Matt Leicester

[jhadler]

I think it was my hero Niki Lauda who said autocrossing takes more skill and road racing takes more bravery. I think I would agree, though I think successful autocrossing takes a lot of bravery and road racing well takes a lot of skill.


I think it depends on ones definition of "bravery". I think Niki Lauda was referring to ones willingness to put ones life (or at least ones physical well being) in jeopardy to achieve victory. That's not really the case in autocross. Sure, you gotta be brave to flat foot it through sections of an autocross where others can't help but lift. But you're not really putting your life in jeopardy by doing so. Your run probably. But generally speaking, your life is not so much at risk by going over the limit in an autocross.

I think there's considerable skill involved in being successful at any of them.

In autox it's the ability to get the absolute most out of the car with only three shots at a very short course. Get it right, and get it now. Focus is critical, and driving at the top level must become instinctive and reflexive.

In TT, it's the ability to focus and evaluate your driving over a longer term. It's the ability to analyze your driving to a much finer degree than what atuox affords. You get run after run after run after run.... TT gives you the venue to refine your skills at higher speeds where simply launching yourself in at 11/10ths could have dramatically bad results. It uses a lot of the skills set from autox, but now it's at much higher speed and momentum.

In RR, there's a whole other element that autox and TT don't really emphasize. And that's the human element. In autox and TT, you're racing against the clock. It is unchanging, unflinching, and utterly and entirely predictable. In RR, you're driving against other humans (okay, that might be debatable), and now you have to learn how the other driver is behaving, and develop tactics that will either allow you to pass them, or prevent them from passing you. All the while attempting to lay down as fast a lap as possible. And when dicing for position, the optimal line that you would use for autox or TT may not be the best (or even available) line.

All three are great, all are different. I love autox, and should I even get the durn car running again for longer than a couple hours at a time, I'll be there. I love TT, and the same rule applies to that. I love the -idea- of road racing, but my budget simply doesn't allow for it these days. Maybe I'll try to get a ride with a Lemons team this year...

-Josh2

[geoffbp58]

Sure, you gotta be brave to flat foot it through sections of an autocross where others can't help but lift. But you're not really putting your life in jeopardy by doing so.

-Josh2

Maybe. If I overcook a turn and smack the curb with her BMW, Caryn's going to kill me.:D

[cojsl]

But generally speaking, your life is not so much at risk by going over the limit in an autocross.
-Josh2

I'd suspect far more people have been killed driving to and from autox events on public roads or at autox events from heart attack, heat stroke, falls, etc, than have been killed taking autox runs.

Risk is all about perspective.

[DaveK]

When I started auto-x-ing a almost a decade ago, I started rally-x at the same time. When looking to 'take it up a level' the dirt called to me more than tarmac. One of the coolest things about rally is that two people are racing together to get to the top as quick as possible, and that allowed me to get my wife involved in the whole thing. :D With both of us interested in going faster, and the urge to be more competitive, we've grown the effort as time/$ have allowed over the last 5 years.

Not sure how road racing works, but with the local hillclimb club, weekend races are ~$175, and there are prize payouts which vary based on how many spectators show up. In the rally classes, finish dead last and you'll usually get back $50-75. Win the class and you're likely to get back a bit more than you paid to enter. Finish in the top 5 overall against the methanol V8 dune buggies, and you might come away with $500 for the weekend. Is it enough to offset the racing expenses...certainly not, but it'll pay for almost 3 tires.

Dave

[Jake Latham]

Travel, entry fees and tires alone cost me over $2000 for the last Autocross season.

FWIW, racing the Stohr (admittedly not the cheapest class out there), I plan for about $1,000 for a double- weekend of racing. That includes:

- a set of used tires every other weekend ($150 per w/e)
- 2 nights hotel ($150)
- entry feel ($350-400)
- race gas ($100ish)
- tow vehicle gas ($50 to HPR)

and then you add in some wiggle room for misc wear items, Friday test-day fees, upgrades, parts breaking, and so on.

You can cut some of that out based on how you race (tires only once or twice a season), sleeping in your trailer, and running single-race weekends instead of both days, but it's expensive no matter which way you cut it, and that's assuming you don't hit anybody, nobody hits you, and nothing expensive parts company with your car.

-Jake

[Dylans]

FWIW, racing the Stohr (admittedly not the cheapest class out there), I plan for about $1,000 for a double- weekend of racing. That includes:

- a set of used tires every other weekend ($150 per w/e)
- 2 nights hotel ($150)
- entry feel ($350-400)
- race gas ($100ish)
- tow vehicle gas ($50 to HPR)

and then you add in some wiggle room for misc wear items, Friday test-day fees, upgrades, parts breaking, and so on.

You can cut some of that out based on how you race (tires only once or twice a season), sleeping in your trailer, and running single-race weekends instead of both days, but it's expensive no matter which way you cut it, and that's assuming you don't hit anybody, nobody hits you, and nothing expensive parts company with your car.

-Jake

Holy crap! I think Jake just hit the nail on the head on the question of 'why more autocrossers don't road race'...

I probably don't spend $1000 a season in autocross and that is racing almost every event I can.

[showmedata]

- entry feel ($350-400)
-Jake
Wait a minute... is that tree-fiddy *or* a feel to gain entry? I'm confused...:rolleyes:

[Jake Latham]

Wait a minute... is that tree-fiddy *or* a feel to gain entry? I'm confused...:rolleyes:

Sorry, was confusing the two mistresses in my life there for a minute...

If one were going for the cheapest race weekend you could go for, it might look something like this:

- tires (once a year with spec class or hard tires, etc), so per weekend perhaps $50 amortized.

- single day race entry is going to be about $240 this year, I think.

- no hotel for 1 day

- open, or small trailer, towed behind modest tow vehicle, $25 in tow gas

- race a car on pump gas ($30)

So now the $800+ weekend is translated into about $345 for a full day's worth of racing, about 70 minutes of track time of you take advantage of all of it.

The only real difference in fixed expenses between road racing and TT is the entry fees, I believe.

TT is MUCH easier to get started in though, since you don't have to buy all the one-time, expensive safety equipment up front, you can add what you want as your car and skills progress. Doing a day of TT is just as accessible as doing a day of AutoX is - and it's the absolute best way to get used to going fast on track without worrying about having to go fast AND not hit the guy next to you.

The AutoX -> TT -> Road Racing progression is just a wonderful way to learn. I'd do it the exact same way if I had to do it over again - 4 years solo, 2 years TT+solo, and I'll be starting my 4th year of club racing this season.

-Jake

[Randy Hickman]

I have several reasons, personally:

$$$ (+$$$$$$$$)
FSP cars don't seem like they'd be all that entertaining on a track. I don't have a cup-holder for my coffee between turns.
Don't want to have to buy that much race rubber.
While I can *almost-but-not-quite* accept the idea of banging up my beloved race car, I REALLY don't want to be responsible for banging up somebody else's beloved race car.

[mannix]

I have several reasons, personally:
I REALLY don't want to be responsible for banging up somebody else's beloved race car.


The first thing they teach you in roadracer-school is simple - it is ALWAYS the other driver's fault.

If THEY were not in the way, THEY'D not have a ruined car.



Iain

[Chris Gladu]

If THEY were not in the way, THEY'D not have a ruined car.
Iain

doest work the same way on the road lol

[hderr]

The first thing they teach you in roadracer-school is simple - it is ALWAYS the other driver's fault.
If THEY were not in the way, THEY'D not have a ruined car.
Iain

I'm thinking you are joking or at least hoping so.
I know you have vastly more experience racing than I, but as one who
is looking forward to club racing school this Spring,
this is not the first thing I expect to hear from my instructors
and it is not the impression I get from time trials, working the road
course and talking to the club racers.

[mannix]

Ack! Yes, big joke.

Making light of the stereotypical (note: not necessarily TRUE) "road racer" mentality, the one where EVERYTHING is someone else's fault.

Joking. They don't teach you that.


Iain

[hderr]

I have several reasons, personally:

$$$ (+$$$$$$$$)
FSP cars don't seem like they'd be all that entertaining on a track. I don't have a cup-holder for my coffee between turns.
Don't want to have to buy that much race rubber.
While I can *almost-but-not-quite* accept the idea of banging up my beloved race car, I REALLY don't want to be responsible for banging up somebody else's beloved race car.

$$$ (+$$$$$$$$) This is correct, it is expensive, just like serious snowboarding, bike racing, many other hobbies, fun things like this require deeper pockets. . Try time trials which is only $ compared to +$$$$...
If it is something you want to do, put it on your bucket list and
move it to the top before you get too old.
"FSP cars don't seem like they'd be all that entertaining on a track. I don't have a cup-holder for my coffee between turns."
OK, on the highway straight at HPR I'm wishing I had a cup of coffee
in the cupholder, that is right up until I see Rob, Lynn, Mark, or... in my mirror
and then I've got my head down thinking I'm fighting for every inch of
asphalt to turn 4, what a hoot.
"Don't want to have to buy that much race rubber."
See #1, but depending on your car/tires this might be overrated.
"While I can *almost-but-not-quite* accept the idea of banging up my beloved race car, I REALLY don't want to be responsible for banging up somebody else's beloved race car."
I know what you mean by this, I'd love to get my 951 (see Avatar) on the track at
HPR, but I'd be devastated if I hurt it.
I don't think you can road race in your "beloved race car". Your race car has to be just a car, a thing. If you love it, don't club race it. It has to be replaceable in your mind (see #1).

[Randy Hickman]

I don't think you can road race in your "beloved race car". Your race car has to be just a car, a thing. If you love it, don't club race it. It has to be replaceable in your mind.
That's really the biggie for me. I don't have a car that I can financially or emotionally afford to go home without.

[hderr]

That's really the biggie for me. I don't have a car that I can financially or emotionally afford to go home without.
Randy, Randy, ... I seem to remember a couple of cars outside your place
just wishing they could go to the track. :rolleyes:

[Randy Hickman]

Randy, Randy, ... I seem to remember a couple of cars outside your place
just wishing they could go to the track. :rolleyes:

There's only 2 left. I don't own either one of them.

[BoulderG]

Randy - you don't own either one of them? That's the ideal car to take racing!!

A couple of serious comments:
Yes, it is that much fun. Doesn't mean it's cheap, but, it's that much fun.

I'm still quite new at wheel-to-wheel racing, but regionally I see little contact (outside Spec Miata) and lots of peer pressure to keep it clean. On the other hand, one reason I like open-wheel racing (formula cars) is it's a very low-contact class since nearly all contact injures both cars.

If anyone is seriously considering road racing, feel welcome to PM me to talk about it. I'd also rent my car (fully supported) for the right driver.

[Jake Latham]

I don't think you can road race in your "beloved race car". Your race car has to be just a car, a thing. If you love it, don't club race it. It has to be replaceable in your mind (see #1).


+1. As Grant says, you have to be able, financially and emotionally, to walk away if you stack your car up on the first turn of the first race in your first season.

Not that it's likely, but I saw one car written off this season.

We only purposely run into people whose names rhyme with "Annix"

-Jake

[Randy Hickman]

+1. As Grant says, you have to be able, financially and emotionally, to walk away if you stack your car up on the first turn of the first race in your first season.
Yah. I can't qualify for that requirement financially OR emotionally. I love AX. If I stacked the Scirocco, I'd HAVE to replace it, and I'd rather not have to try to do that.

We only purposely run into people whose names rhyme with "Annix"
Sounds reasonable...:D

[mannix]

We only purposely run into people whose names rhyme with "Annix" to keep them from lapping us again.

-Jake

Fixed it for you;).


Iain

[Matt Leicester]

Ooooh, don't mess with someone who has "Super Moderator" under his name!

[gordon0412]

Money and skills. The cash to equip and prepare the car, pay the fee's etc., and the skills and equipment to repair the maintenance and damage which is bound to occur. And then there's the don't bring it if you can't afford to leave it thing. You and others made it very clear to me that any car you bring to the track for HPDE, TT's, or racing you should be prepared to leave there. That's something which probably eliminate's 99% of people with a realistic outlook. My "toy" is paid for and a second car so I can deal with the thought each time I take it out that I might plant it into a wall, or roll it over and lose it. Most people can't so autocross is a much safer alternative. Granted lot's more work for much less seat time, but still a hoot, and the ultimate grassroots motorsport.

[Jake Latham]

If that's the case, then I think the antecedent phrase should have been "rhymes with 'Enzel' "

:D

Fixed it for you;).


Iain

[Built-By-Bones]

If that's the case, then I think the antecedent phrase should have been "rhymes with 'Enzel' "

:D

better look out I hear rumors of a Spec Ben Hur being floated

:eek: