CTT Starts... can we talk?

[John Scheier]

I wanted to start some dialog on the CTT starting procedures.

This past Sunday was probably the closest I've come to being hit during a CTT start and I really think we can come up with something better <or> at least verbalize / instruct everyone on what we are wanting them to do. I know others were frustrated as well.. so positive dialog is welcomed.

I think I was in ~ POS 8 on Sunday's start. The green had already been thrown when I was coming down 14 a/b. Immediately following 14, everyone is at almost a complete stop and the person behind me is still coming on strong.

Dan had instructed everyone (during the pre-competition meeting) not to 'Jump' on the start and no passes until T3... but really nothing else was said. I didn't attend the PDX classroom sessions, so I'm not sure we actually cover starting procedures for CTT (or if it even should be)... and it wasn't covered thoroughly on Sunday in the driver's meeting.

What I know:

I know we want the front runners to bunch us up, but I'm not sure the message was clear / strong enough on what we wanted.
I know for a fact that there were still cars on the county road straight when I came through 14. This directly effects the front runners and defeats the 'bunching up' directive.Thoughts / Suggestions:


Debrief following qualifying to discuss CTT starts / procedures?
Coverage during PDX classroom?
Increased coverage during driver's meeting and/or before competition runs.
No bunched starts?I am not complaining & certainly not blaming anyone, but I really think we can do better and more importantly, keep it safe.

[Built-By-Bones]

good thread John

I think some of the problem was running the west course for the first time. And we had a leader that had never been in front for the start before, and several newer drivers with us too.

Saturday's starts went pretty well, and David and Jeff introduced starts in the Advanced PDX on Saturday, and that went prety well too.

We can definitely do a better job with starts, and with training our drivers for the starts.

I have some idea's, but also want to hear from our chiefs and drivers, so post up your thoughts

[LoCore]

I agree with John that we need to discuss the starts, especially when our numbers are large, and when cars are wanting to do something different than drive at full speed for the first lap.

So, ideas, solutions? Since we're *still* having trouble with time trialers knowing where the passing zones are despite repeating it endlessly, I'm not sure that more *talk* is going to have the effect we need.

[lmichael]

Just a couple of thoughts...

With my "vast" time trial experience, I might suggest starting in groups of 6 or 8 with a 10 to 20 second gap (or 1 or 2 turns) between groups. The lead car of each group would be responsible for maintaining the gap between their group and the group in front.

The groups could contain similarly classed cars (see the other classing thread).

[jhadler]

Just a couple of thoughts...

With my "vast" time trial experience, I might suggest starting in groups of 6 or 8 with a 10 to 20 second gap (or 1 or 2 turns) between groups. The lead car of each group would be responsible for maintaining the gap between their group and the group in front.

The groups could contain similarly classed cars (see the other classing thread).

Problem is, that would defeat the purpose of grouping the start in the first place. The main reason for the grouped start was to allow open track for the faster cars. Because of the limited format, all cars run in the same heat most of the time. This means big differences in lap times. If we spread out the start, the faster cars may not even get 1 clean lap before overtaking back-traffic. It's happened before. We started grouping the starts on the basis of qualifying times so the cars would string out more naturally, and there wouldn't be mad overtaking right off start. Car classing would just make more of a mess. You could wind up with two Z06 drivers in the same group, one rookie and one veteran, and they could easily have 5-10 seconds between them.

-Josh2

[GingerGSR]

Is it possible that the instruction for no passing on the front straight on the 1st lap was taken to mean "take it easy"?
I was gridded 7th which is about the norm for me, but I had to hold off on the power button for quite a while before everyone took off.
I do recall that the starter did wait a bit later than I've seen in the past to throw the green.

[mjmauro]

I believe that Sunday's start brought problems to a head and this is a good opportunity to discuss them.

1. With a new driver at the front, there was a very slow start, where, when the green was thrown and I was ready to accelerate (I was right in front of John) everyone was still going slow and I had to back off, which left John very large in my rear view mirror and it probably got amplified further back in the pack. An immediate solution is to place an experienced driver who has the knowledge of how starts should work up in front regardless of the qualifying times.

2. Several people told me that they felt short changed by only getting a 20 minute session when all other groups got 30 -35 minutes, it made every one of our laps very critical when trying to get several clean laps. Compounding the short length of time was the high number of cars on the track and their large relative disparity in speeds-over 20 seconds per lap. This made finding a clean lap extremely difficult which was exacerbated by the fact that the first lap did not see the front runners going close to full speed and thus, there was little space opened up for people to find their clean track.

Having to brake excessively on the first lap ( never a good thing an underpowered car), I quickly decided to pull off track and wait for a little bit of clear track-thus killing that lap, a minute or so in hot pits, and the next lap while getting up to speed. After finally picking off a few of the slower cars, I finally got one clean lap, my eighth, and took the checkered flag at its end. It seemed like the session had just started.

My question is, with such little time, why do we waste time doing a complete out lap and then take the green? Why not make sure the field is okay by corner eight and then throw the green at corner station nine. Regardless of the course configuration, short or long, by the time the field hits the S/F they will be a little more spread out and at close to full speed. I don't see the necessity of having to have the field bunched up for CTTs, but after doing the drivers' school , I do see how important it is in Club Racing. If there are stragglers the rear, they won't be in anyone's way until after the front runners have had many clear laps to get their fastest, cleanest times. It is much more difficult to get a clean lap from the middle of a tightly bunched pack. Just look at the closeness of times in the middle of yesterday's race. A couple more opportunities to get a clean, fast lap could have made a big difference in the final results. This problem is more critical when doing the longer course as it results in several fewer laps per session. So maybe we need to do the same number of laps as the Club Racers do; fourteen laps yesterday would have been great or maybe twelve. The first racer to finish the predetermined number of laps ends the session.

It is great to see that the powers to be are so interested in positive feedback and is a testament to why we have one of the best programs in the country.

Thanks!

[jhadler]

An immediate solution is to place an experienced driver who has the knowledge of how starts should work up in front regardless of the qualifying times.

I think that's a very good idea.

So maybe we need to do the same number of laps as the Club Racers do; fourteen laps yesterday would have been great or maybe twelve. The first racer to finish the predetermined number of laps ends the session.

I also think that idea has merit. Especially on longer tracks where the time limit can really shorten the number of laps run.

-Josh2

[GingerGSR]

I for one like the idea of getting a full "race" session that is the same as the club racers. Looking at the sup's for last weekend, they ran 14 lap races for a distance of 35 miles. I run about 60 MHP on average so for my car it would take 35 minutes to get in my 14 laps. If the Clay/Jeff/Dave can get the their 14 laps run in 30 minutes or less, I'd only be down 2 laps max. 12 laps is is a whole lot better than 7.
As for starts, I'd agree that having an experienced TT'er take point makes sense. It was Mike's 1st pole and only his 2nd real TT start (AFAIK).
I think we all must have had mirrors filled with fellow drivers sporting wide eyes.

[TheMidasTouch]

Hey folks. I must apologize, I was the lead car ( :( I'm sorry).

There were a few things I was keeping in mind when starting. The first is that we need to be bunched together closely before they'll throw the green. I could tell we weren't that well 'bunched' because they hadn't thrown the flag until well after I had crested the hill off of the corkscrew. Which I take full responsibility for. I'm not sure where I was driving too quickly to cause us spread out so much. Anyone with a close eye on me notice? Jeff, Dave?

The second is the first two laps are throwaways laps. One being the warm up lap(of course), and the second because we won't get a good run out of the corkscrew anyways(translating into a slow second half of the pit straight).

Because it's not a race, I can't see any reason to really push it the second lap other then to keep warming your tires up. In fact there's only a few chances per weekend that we really get to put together a good full lap (normally its timed lap 2). The gradually increasing distance between each car and the large disparity from front to back with the restriction of passing zones, a 'clean' lap becomes more and more a problem. And not just for the front runners. If Clay's catching someone by the end of the county road straight in lap 3 someone in the middle may still catch that driver before the corkscrew, and thus...

So I looked at my responsibilities from the front as exactly that. Bunch us all together knowing the first two laps were throwaways, and do my best to keep out of the way from whoever is behind me while still driving safely. If I were mid pack or rear, i would view my responsibilities as paying attention to the car in front of me first and the flag second. Since it's not a race and we can't pass in turns, I would drive to the speed of the person who qualified in front of me until the distance was great enough to push the car safely. The real start of the 'race' was the entrance to the corkscrew on the second lap. And I assumed this is what everyone else had in mind too since I'm a relative novice.

So this means I really like Marks idea. Throw the green flag before the 'point of no return' meaning corner 8 or corner 10 pending configuration.

It seems the root of our problem(with regard to clean track time) is really the percentage of disparity between the front and rear of the group with a constant value assigned to each additional car in the group assuming there isn't a variance in the median or mean times skewing the pack forwards or backwards. The size of the course shouldn't matter(although it may be more frustrating to have to wait 2+ minutes to get another chance vs one and a half.) But perhaps something like a lap Disparity Index((front car lap/rear car lap) + the constant). With a result closer to one being better. This gives us three options, slow down the front, speed up the rear, or separate the groups entirely. Best case scenario, split the group, throw the green before the 'point' and pay attention to the car in front of you, first, and the green second. But we have limited resources(time) so, personally, I'll still make due with what I've got and be thankful it's possible.

I still had a wonderful time, I am very sorry for any frustrations. And I'm very grateful to everyone who helped put this together and make the event go round. I'll see you guys next time hopefully!

[LoCore]

I do not think what we encounered were due to Mike in the lead; the speeds for the start were not atypical of what we've seen in other starts.

We have never established a firm expected speed for the lead car to take--we should.

When Kelly and I were leading the Adv PDX in their CTT simulation, cars at the back were doing a terrible job of keeping up with the pack, despite the lower speeds. As a result, we kept going slower and slower to get the group bunched up. That seems like a bad idea, and causes the very think that Mark points out.

Bottom line: the entire group is repsonsible for staying bunched up--this is not the responsibility of just the lead driver--if we are to make our current starting "plan" work for the most cars.

With fast cars at the front and slow cars at the rear, sorted by qualification times, I'm not sure how we do better at trying to maximize the amount of open space anyone has. If the cars are in that order, and are bunched at the start, then that group should slowly spread out--if they are driving at full speed--until finally the lead car catches up with the trailing car.

That's the key assume that isn't being met: some cars are NOT driving at full speed during the first few laps while they come up to temp. I'm NOT saying this is a requirement either.

I believe we may be encountering a limit of the number of cars that we can have on track for this format, if we are to give everyone on track a chance at a couple of hot laps.

All that said, there is no guarentee that anyone is going to have multiple clear flyers, and your odds only get worse the further back from the lead car that one qualifies.

No reason to say "sorry" Mike--this is a problem that we all have to sort out, and is not the fault of one car. As for Mike, Jeff, and I, as we pulled away from the group, we were able to get warm, keep the speeds up, and keep space for a few hot laps.

I'm not sure how we do better, other than really keeping the cars close together at the start--that *should* be working, and *does* require that cars try to setup space in front of them at the start.

[edit--updating my comment regarding time]
I didn't realize the session was so short. I sometimes forget that we pay substantially less than the road racers do, and that is--at least in part--why our time on track is shorter than the road racers. However, as our numbers grow, so does the income that we bring. I haven't done the math for this last weekend.

Mark's observations point out that time is also a critical element of being able to get everyone a chance at some good flyers. Sunday's situation: lots of cars, short course, fewer passing zones, and a short session was going to be complicated at best.

[LoCore]

Some other ideas that would certainly change the starts (not sure if they would help or hurt):

1. Rolling reverse order start, slowest first, fastest last.
2. Standing start, reverse order, cars spaced on a time differential.

NASA does the latter for some of their road racing, which leads to somewhat of a wild finish where everyone is finishing at approximately the same time. In the context of Time Trials, that seems like it would almost guarentee everyone a couple of fast laps, but at the *beginning* of the session again. It would be entertaining to say the least.

3. Cars get a maximum number of laps, shorter than the session will allow. This would slowly clear the track during the session. Maybe.

4. Split finish: schedule a 'n' minute "race", where the top half of cars are on track the first 'n*2/3' minutes) and the last half of the cars are sent out for the last 'n*2/3' minutes). This would be a pain to implement, but is doable.

5. Cut the field in half, extend the race session at the cost of reducing pratice and/or qual, and split the race session in half (two subgroups within the same group).

[GingerGSR]

No reason to say "sorry" Mike--this is a problem that we all have to sort out, and is not the fault of one car.

+1 Mike.
I didn't know what was going on up in front (and rarely do) so I just waited for the green and kept an eye on the bumper in front of me. We just have to trust that when they go, you go.
It’s as much the responsibility of the cars at the end to keep us bunched as it is the lead cars.

[jhadler]

Some other ideas that would certainly change the starts (not sure if they would help or hurt):

1. Rolling reverse order start, slowest first, fastest last.


Wow. Not sure about that one. There would be an awful lot of overtaking in the first couple laps. And no one would have a clean lap.

2. Standing start, reverse order, cars spaced on a time differential.

I think with caged cars, standing starts are cool. But cars without cages, and with stock drivelines (for the most part), it's seems fraught with broken metal. Standing start = pro solo start. And we all know how easy those are on cars...

3. Cars get a maximum number of laps, shorter than the session will allow. This would slowly clear the track during the session. Maybe.

I think that people in faster cars will feel shorted for seat time. "Why does the guy in the Civic get to spend more time on the track than the gal in the Vette?"

4. Split finish: schedule a 'n' minute "race", where the top half of cars are on track the first 'n*2/3' minutes) and the last half of the cars are sent out for the last 'n*2/3' minutes). This would be a pain to implement, but is doable.

Think of a hot and tired driver toward the end of their competition session. Now suddenly double the number of cars on track.

5. Cut the field in half, extend the race session at the cost of reducing pratice and/or qual, and split the race session in half (two subgroups within the same group).

There's already a provision in the sups for two competition groups. At >20 drivers. Sounds like that might have been the way to go.

Word is though, the corner workers are enjoying the CTT groups more than some of the race groups now because the CTT group at least has lots of cars. An 8 car run group for road racing can get pretty dull for the workers if the cars fan out.

-Josh2

[LoCore]

Josh is having a glass half-empty sort of day.

C'mon--let's hear from some of the drivers!

[BlueVelocity]

OH!!!! Standing start? PLEASE!!
You guys know what a stutterbox and antilag sounds like?:D


That would be awesome actually, but I would bet that it takes longer to get everyone to grid and what not. Plus the busted parts, that's certainly when bad things can happen. I would love it though as on occasion I moonlight the car at Bandimere.

I like the way it's stacked now, fastest to slowest. I actually waited until the entire pack was out before heading out. (for other reasons) But I still had a mostly empty track in front of me. To me it really doesn't matter how you stack people, it's the challenge of the entire event. Maybe we can do some testing/trying out of a couple of formats? I'm up for it.

[Solo2GS]

I've been reading this with much interest... From the outside looking in from a person who has attended many past track days I guess I don't see the point of a bunched up race like start.

CTT isn't a spec class with everyone running the same cars with an equal chance to get a better position right off the start... So why have a bunched up race start?

Why not start each car from hot grid? Line up in grid as usual with faster cars in the front, flagging one car to go at a time with a few second gap between each? Or even one right after another... No need to launch hard off the line... Cars take it easy until they enter the track just after corner 2. Cars maintain position until the green flag. By that point there will be some spacing between cars to begin with and everyone is going all out.

I have been to many events were we ran several different 30-35 minute sessions based on driver skill and the car capability. Above is how we started most events and there were very few congestion issues. Often groups had 20-30+ cars in them. We all had transponders with the goal to see who could get the best lap times within the time schedule...

With a "timed" event versus a "the first driver to reach X number of laps" race I would think the start does not need to be so formal as long as everyone gets out there about the same time.

[GingerGSR]

I've been reading this with much interest... From the outside looking in from a person who has attended many past track days I guess I don't see the point of a bunched up race like start.

CTT isn't a spec class with everyone running the same cars with an equal chance to get a better position right off the start... So why have a bunched up race start?
The theory is that if we're gridded from fastest to slowest based on our qualifying times and we get bunched up nice & tight for the green flag, we'll all get streached out and no one should have to do any passing until the lead car laps the last car after 5 or more laps. Some of us are very close performance wise so it doesn't always work out pefectly. John S., Mark Sr., (and now Nick C.) and I run within a few 10ths or less most laps. It's comes down to which of us has the better tires, brakes or line (or stickers :D ) on any given day/session/lap.

If we did a spaced start the car up front would hit traffic right away and wouldn't have a clear track to get that fast lap in due to limited passing zones. Remember, were not racing each other, we're racing the ourselves against the clock.

[ncaruso]

I thought the spacing on the practice and qualifying runs worked out perfectly. I placed myself where i thought I wanted to be in the grid and only passed others once or twice, and I don't think I was ever passed myself. this being a result of not getting too close to the pack before the green.

On the actual race session, I wasn't a big fan of being bunched up at all. I benefited greatly from the car in front of me pitting for better spacing, other wise I think I would have been pretty cramped. I know for a fact there were two cars right behind me that I wasn't pulling away from, but were also unable to pass me when given the opportunity.

I really like the idea of letting everyone get out there on their own pace, maybe within a minute or so from first to last car, and finding their own space to run. The leader was running about 15 seconds faster than mid pack so it would be at least 4 laps before he got into traffic again. I think that after the practice session you can look at the posted times and see where you want to be. After a few events, i think you can even more accurately determine the best place for yourself.

[Solo2GS]

If we did a spaced start the car up front would hit traffic right away and wouldn't have a clear track to get that fast lap in due to limited passing zones. Remember, were not racing each other, we're racing the ourselves against the clock.

Then what about a simular start paced out from grid as I mentioned. Even a continuos start right after one another. The first lap is a "warm-up" lap to begin with. Drivers do their best to form a single or double car well spaced line up 1 or 2 turns (by a designated point) before the start line, yet the leader maintains a set speed to cross the start line. Goal being regardless or where you are at you at X MPH at the start line. It does not need to be bunched up, but lined up. Regardless if there are a few stragglers the green flag is thrown and off you all go...

Perhaps I am getting the wrong picture of everyone needing to be gathered up two by two as NASCAR or INDY needs to be or the green flag isn't thrown...

I'd offer to be the pace car, but have a habit of not being very good at it!

[jhadler]

... I know for a fact there were two cars right behind me that I wasn't pulling away from, but were also unable to pass me when given the opportunity.

When given the opportunity? Did you let them by? If they're filling your mirrors, let them by. Sometimes it may mean actually lifting to give them the opportunity.

I really like the idea of letting everyone get out there on their own pace, maybe within a minute or so from first to last car, and finding their own space to run.

How long of a string do you think 20+ cars is? Since the cars aren't at full pace on the out lap, the interval between cars is going to be longer than you think. I'd say a string of cars 20+ long is pretty close to 30+ seconds. If you string the cars out further, the faster cars up front will catch the back field a lot sooner than you might think.

The leader was running about 15 seconds faster than mid pack so it would be at least 4 laps before he got into traffic again.

But mid-pack isn't what he would catch first, it's the back of the pack.

I think the best variation so far is to have a green flag option at the black flag station or other half-way point around the track, and make sure the point driver knows the drill.

-Josh2

[GingerGSR]

Perhaps I am getting the wrong picture of everyone needing to be gathered up two by two as NASCAR or INDY needs to be or the green flag isn't thrown...

We use a single file start.

[ncaruso]

It turns it he didn't want to pass me. We were running the same speeds and were so close together because we bunched for the start.

[John Scheier]

Glad I got some good discussion going :)

Mike... this was not pointed at you at all! Seriously. This has been a sore spot for a while with me (you know...safety nazi). All it takes is one brief period of inattention during these starts and we have contact.

Lots of good ideas. With the short track and >20 cars, we SHOULD have had a split session... and that would have alleviated some of the issue. However, with cars lagging behind, the idea of a bunched start will not work, regardless of who is in front.

Perfect scenario: We are all single file, coming nose-to-tail through the corkscrew, they drop the flag and everyone accelerates. The guys up front are faster and will thus pull away... giving everyone space to run (since none of us sandbagged during qualifying). The fast drivers up front will probably have a couple of laps to be clean before they catch the tail.

Short track and >20 cars... no can do even if the start was nearly perfect.

It is a tough call. I just don't want to see any contact.

[ianacole]

Perfect scenario: We are all single file, coming nose-to-tail through the corkscrew, they drop the flag and everyone accelerates. The guys up front are faster and will thus pull away... giving everyone space to run (since none of us sandbagged during qualifying). The fast drivers up front will probably have a couple of laps to be clean before they catch the tail.

Not necessarily true ... faster lap time doesn't always mean faster off the start, or down the straight.

[jhadler]

It is a tough call. I just don't want to see any contact.

I'm in full agreement with you there. We struggled with this concept early one in the program, and maybe it's time to review the basics again. The intent we had was to allow the front runners a shot at clear track before encountering traffic. This was a significant issue at SCR, and where the concept was hatched. We wanted to group cars single file, and by order of qualifying times. This would allow the cars to string out naturally and reduce the amount of overtaking. But your'e right John, it's a tough one. We're trying to make it amicable and safe for everyone.

Reverse grid... Geez. I can see everyone on grid diving to the shoulder to let Kieth and Clay by as they shoot up through the field.

Ian, that's the reason why we established the "no pass" on the green flag until the NEXT passing zone. That way all the cars see some turns and acceleration zones, and should be more spread out by the time the next passing zone comes up.

-Josh2

[John Scheier]

Not necessarily true ...
unless you read the part that says "Perfect Scenario"

;)

There is only one 'EASY' solution... and that is to educate the CTT'rs so they are aware of how they should react, respond, etc. More coverage at the driver's meeting. Maybe coverage in PDX (still not sure about that one). Definitely needs more coverage though.

[John Scheier]

Interesting side-note.... all but 2 of the CTT drivers had their best run in the first 4 laps. Of those, most of the driver's fastest lap was lap # 2 :eek:

18 drivers total

Fastest lap # drivers
2 11
3 1
4 3
5 2
8 1

data compliments of www.mylaps.com

[GingerGSR]

Interesting side-note.... all but 2 of the CTT drivers had their best run in the first 4 laps. Of those, most of the driver's fastest lap was lap # 2 :eek:

18 drivers total

Fastest lap # drivers
2 11
3 1
4 3
5 2
8 1

data compliments of www.mylaps.com

The lap 8 driver was Mark Sr. If he'd been gridded in front of me rather than behind, his fastest probably would have been #2 as well.

[John Scheier]

The lap 8 driver was mark Sr. If he'd been gridded in front of me rather than behind, his fastest probably would have been #2 as well.

Yup... and his fastest lap was #8... which, if you look at the results, most of us had already gotten off the track by then.

[mjmauro]

That was the only clean lap that I got and it was really frustrating to see the checkered flag at its end.

I do think that my earlier laps would have yielded faster times if I could have found clear track as my car started to get hot and I had to do a cool down lap just prior to the last lap. My car really suffers HP loss from the heat with the stock intake which shows on my data, as my avg lap speeds were down 2.5 mph on the race session and I was down about 4mph at the end of the long straight before turn 4. I have never had overheating problems like that before, but I don't remember seeing 97 degrees on my thermometer either.

[Built-By-Bones]

Please keep
posting your thoughts

I definetiney want to keep us safe but also want to prepare our drivers for their progression to r/r

Mike B this is NOT YOUR FAULT AT ALL

I will post my thoughts when I am not do busy

[Built-By-Bones]

Please keep
posting your thoughts

I definetiney want to keep us safe but also want to prepare our drivers for their progression to r/r

Mike B this is NOT YOUR FAULT AT ALL

I will post my thoughts when I am not do busy

severely challenged noobie iPhonenuser

[LoCore]

unless you read the part that says "Perfect Scenario"

;)

There is only one 'EASY' solution... and that is to educate the CTT'rs so they are aware of how they should react, respond, etc. More coverage at the driver's meeting. Maybe coverage in PDX (still not sure about that one). Definitely needs more coverage though.

I will be posting a video that shows how close it can get. This wasn't a start issue, but rather one due to a chain of events that led for an interesting moment for Mr. Burch and myself.