WOW I feel green. Classing and general help

[mikeroets]

Hey Im Mike. I live in parker. Im completely new to 4 wheel competition. Iv been racing 2 wheels for a couple years now. Im interested in more competitive hobbies and have always been interested in autoX.

One observation Iv noticed is that the classes seem to be based on vehicle modification rather than driver ability (other than novice class)..am I correct in saying this or did I not look hard enough?

1-Ill start with an easy question- classing

2004 Single cab short bed Dodge ram 1/2 ton. 4WD (5200lbs oh yea)
Some bolt ons
-stock replacement K&N panel filter
-TB spacer
-muffler
-big wheels (22s 305/40 tires)

2-If I run in 2wd will I be classed differently than If I ran in 4wd...the truck has open diffs...I would think running in 4wd would be a traction aide?

3-do I need to be an SCCA member for all events?
4-what does tech want to see?

Im going to try and roll out to DSGP this saturday and observe for a couple hours....

Thats my questions for now...Thanks!

Mike

[Solo2GS]

Yes, Classing is based on the vehicle you are driving, year, make, model, and modifications or not made to it.

We do have a regional supp class called X class where a lot of the very good drivers compete against each other with scores indexed. This way it gives the rest of us mortals a chance in our own class :)

You need to be an SCCA member. If you are not an SCCA Member you are required to buy a weekend membership at registration for $15.

Tech makes sure your vehicle is cleaned up (no flying debris inside), ball joints/hubs ok, battery tied down, proper SNELL rating on your helmet, proper numbers... Basic stuff. The important stuff is looked at by you!

Unfortunatly I can be of no help to you when it comes to a truck. There are very few trucks I have seen over the years and most are smaller trucks modified to be lower to the ground. We have two in our region (small nissan trucks) and I have only seen one other modified Dodge Dakota over the years.

I don't know if you are standard truck height or lowered to the ground, but typically high center of gravity vehicles.. SUVs and such are not allowed to run because of roll over potential. I am not the one to clarify this ruling for you, but wanted to make note of this to you.

Come on out, enjoy the event, even ask for a ride or two! We are a very welcoming crowd!

[marcrx5]

From the Rules:

"Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track,
including SUV’s, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded.
Examples of such vehicles are listed in Appendix A. Extra caution
should be exercised with non-traditional vehicles, e.g. trucks using
racing slicks."

There is also something in the back of the rule book with a SSF chart, but it's not very visible to read online. Basically, if you have an SSF of 1.3 or higher, your vehicle is estimated to have too high a rollover risk to be able to run. If you have lowered your truck, and you think it might make drop it below the 1.3 SSF, it might be worth looking into.

Codriving someone elses car might be a good solution.

[mikeroets]

The truck is 4wd but doesnt look the part. Iv got the back lowered to level it out aesthetically with the front and plan on getting aggressive with an axle flip kit this summer (approx 6 inch drop in the rear) and ill match it by re-indexing/adjusting torsions in the front.... and for what its worth i also plan on getting a bigger front anti-sway bar and installing a rear bar-truck didnt come with a rear stock...

Whats SSF and how do I measure/gauge it?

[Van]

Mike, do you happen to also have a car? Or do you have a buddy who is also interested in autocross? Maybe yall could codrive his/hers. I can't say for sure that you'll be allowed to autocross a tall 4wd half ton on 22's but I wouldn't bet on it! :)

Again, I am NOT official but you might want a back up plan.

Come out on Saturday regardless and get some rides (it's free). ;)

Van

[marcrx5]

Whats SSF and how do I measure/gauge it?

Static Stability Factor. SSF = (track width)/(2* CG height).

And I was incorrect earlier, if it's lower than 1.3, then you have a problem.


Ultimately, I'm not the one that can decide if a truck can run or not, that would probably be up to one of the safety folks, or maybe tech (?).


Come out this Saturday and check it out, plenty of people are willing to give rides, and some people might even be willing to let you codrive at a following event.

[mikeroets]

Mike, do you happen to also have a car? Or do you have a buddy who is also interested in autocross? Maybe yall could codrive his/hers. I can't say for sure that you'll be allowed to autocross a tall 4wd half ton on 22's but I wouldn't bet on it! :)

honestly I have scoured craigslist looking for SOME sort of foundation to put a car together with but figure its cheaper and easier for me to keep working on my dodge. ...i never should have gotten rid of my rear drive corolla...

Im going to come check it out this weekend regardless and maybe wait to enter an event AFTER I drop the truck and get bigger sway bars on it...maybe then it wont be such an issue...

is their anybody i can email a pic and description to who can decide if its unsafe or not?

[AHendricksen]

honestly I have scoured craigslist looking for SOME sort of foundation to put a car together with but figure its cheaper and easier for me to keep working on my dodge. ...i never should have gotten rid of my rear drive corolla...

Im going to come check it out this weekend regardless and maybe wait to enter an event AFTER I drop the truck and get bigger sway bars on it...maybe then it wont be such an issue...

is their anybody i can email a pic and description to who can decide if its unsafe or not?


Email your situation, specs. and a picture to this guy: DGill@scca.com

His name is Doug Gill. Arnie Coleman refered me over to him about a question I had on my Audi's classification. He is a great guy (both of them lol).

Good luck

[mikeroets]

Thanks Audrey!

[usakubko]

Come on out for sure. The lower the car/truck, the better (it's for your own good). I've got an old Baja Bug I'd love to bring out, but because of a weird rear suspension setup (early design flaw :rolleyes: ) there's a possibility of rolling over the rear tires so I'm resisting the urge for now. Well, actually, I'm just too lazy to fix it (already got all the parts) :o . Come get rides, check out the atmosphere, talk to people, bring a camera and have some fun. Bring your truck, show it to the people doing tech, they should be able to give you some advice. Trucks are always fun to watch, and besides, I've seen pictures of passenger cars 'two-wheelin' before, so it's not just trucks and SUVs that can roll. They're just at higher risk :rolleyes: But if you got the right combination going you should be fine.
And welcome to RMSolo!

[PEZi303]

yeah just talk to the safety folks this weekend when you come and see what they say... i'd personally lower it if i were you before coming out just for your own good anyway..

my truck came tiny as is... then i lowered it even more and stiffened it up a bit... i'll still be working on it for years to come with stiffening and custom suspension parts and then race slicks

i also run in a prepared class which helps because i dropped the weight of my truck well below the 3,000 lb mark... its never been on scales but its not too much more than 2,300 lbs... lower it... stiffen it... lighten it... those are my suggestions

here's a pic... the wheels are 15" just for reference

http://zhksfw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pxQUq9lvDkcZ8t3eu82Jb5q_sz2zJyqTo-pmFzufiMwP3Y4O2wSMl92kqHLV3HvJ8qGftKKkpwZKrpa3CLAh 7lA/IMG_8589.jpg

[mikeroets]

I have a little experience with dropped trucks.....mostly with air ride. I have always wanted to do (another) mazda (b2000/2200/2600) with coilovers all around and 4 link rear....static dropped to within 2 or 3 inches of the pavement.

Im stoked about checking this out. Ill probably be there around lunch time...how late does it usually go till?

[geoffbp58]

Oh, 2:30 or so.... see ya there!

[PEZi303]

I have a little experience with dropped trucks.....mostly with air ride. I have always wanted to do (another) mazda (b2000/2200/2600) with coilovers all around and 4 link rear....static dropped to within 2 or 3 inches of the pavement.

Im stoked about checking this out. Ill probably be there around lunch time...how late does it usually go till?

yeah 2:30 or so sounds about right... i'll be running in first heat though at 9:30 so i'll probably be done by the time you get there

[mikeroets]

Thanks !

[Jamie]

Mike - come out Saturday and bring your truck. We'll have very experienced folks at the event who can take a look at it and help you class it if they think it'll be safe to autox. Not to worry, they are all nice and fair and very knowledgable of the rules. I'll be in the timing truck (which is distinctively marked with "SCCA"), so if you need some help finding someone to talk to, come find me.

And, welcome to RMSolo!

[mikeroets]

I plan on it!

Its cool already- the welcoming of a newbie. You gotta love nice people!

I already have a few plans of action ready, if my truck isnt worthy...

[mikeroets]

I stopped by for a little while today and was totally chompin at the bit to get the ball rollin for myself. Ill be honest it was my first time even observing any 4 wheeled event other than drag racing. It was pretty sweet Ill say.

I didnt talk to anybody regarding my truck and its legality though. The speeds were faster than I anticipated so I totally see the rollover potential now....thats what Im working on with my Dodge-to get it wider than it is tall.

So I came home and started working on my truck. (it squats in the back now...ill drop the front tomorrow) With some work I believe it will be worthy, instead of buying a car and starting from scratch.

the announcer guys were a riot.

'we have a silver peace sign earring if anybodies looking for it, so Mike (whatever his last name was) come get your earring'

'who am I kidding-its not his. Mike doesnt wear silver'

[PEZi303]

yeah the announcers are always entertaining... i always request it as my work assignment but don't get it

but yes the speeds are a little quicker than most expect... i personally came out of the slalom at the end of the course at 55 this time

[mikeroets]

so......I didnt want to spend the money but I bought another car to compete with.

I picked up an AE86 coupe on thursday....

The slow motor and trans is out and I will be picking up the new motor one of these days. I have decided on an S14 KA24DE and 5 speed....

Game on!

[SuperWhiteGT4]

so......I didnt want to spend the money but I bought another car to compete with.

I picked up an AE86 coupe on thursday....

The slow motor and trans is out and I will be picking up the new motor one of these days. I have decided on an S14 KA24DE and 5 speed....

Game on!

You're putting a Nissan Motor in a Toyota?

Anyways- nice pickup!

[Van]

Mike! Finally someone with some smarts. AE86 FTW!

Did you get one of the ones that was on craigslist?

Let's see it.

Van

[mikeroets]

yes this is a craigslist cream puff. no messing around. You dot see it at big jims used cars because its at my house.

1986 corolla sr-5 coupe. Its SUPER light right now mainly because it doesnt have a motor or trans in it. I pulled it saturday.

[PEZi303]

KA is definitely a fun motor to play with... dunno it would be my choice in a yota tho... but that's cause i personally would never mix and match auto makes

can't wait to see what this end up like tho... what class do you plan on building for?

[mikeroets]

You're putting a Nissan Motor in a Toyota?

Anyways- nice pickup!

Thanks! I love my truck. and yes. Nissan motor in a toyota

Im not going for Formula1 precision here.

The KA is 80+hp more than the stock 4a-c and like 40HP more than a 4age. Parts (and complete motors/trans for that matter) are readily available and easily upgradeable. Its 4cyl RWD so its going in!

Im not going to lie...if it wasnt so heavy...I would like to do a small block swap. Call me backwoods or whatever but in a straight line Im sure even a mild 350 (350HP +-)it would be a monster. Im not so sure it would turn that great though. But Im going for general use here, not necessarily purpose built.

[SubySal]

I saw an S2000 motor and drivetrain swapped into an 86 on a BMI video. It was pretty awesome. Unstreetable, but an animal.

You may want to keep one thing in mind though. The 86's chassis is pretty flexy. I've heard you can't really use more than 200HP without some significant chassis reinforcements.

Even Keiichi Tsuchiya's 86 is only putting out 170-180HP.

[mikeroets]

You may want to keep one thing in mind though. The 86's chassis is pretty flexy. I've heard you can't really use more than 200HP without some significant chassis reinforcements.

Even Keiichi Tsuchiya's 86 is only putting out 170-180HP.

I think 200 WHP (225-240 crank HP?) through a KA is ~relatively~ easy and I would like to hit that mark...but well see. The majority of my actions towords this car are budget driven. ....and the budget is miniscule.....


So lets legitimize the thread...I need novice help...I have NO idea what the foundation for classing cars is. Where might an AE86 with a motor swap, lowered, and some other chassis stuff be put? and of course...with a novice driver....

[SuperWhiteGT4]

I think 200 WHP (225-240 crank HP?) through a KA is ~relatively~ easy and I would like to hit that mark...but well see. The majority of my actions towords this car are budget driven. ....and the budget is miniscule.....


So lets legitimize the thread...I need novice help...I have NO idea what the foundation for classing cars is. Where might an AE86 with a motor swap, lowered, and some other chassis stuff be put? and of course...with a novice driver....

The Nissan swap will put you right into XP if I'm not mistaken (A Toyota swap would have left you in SM).

[SubySal]

There's something I've been wondering since we're on the subject. What about a JDM motorswap in an 86, like dropping in a Blacktop 20v 4AGE...still SM?

BTW I meant BHP not WHP.

[GingerGSR]

There's something I've been wondering since we're on the subject. What about a JDM motorswap in an 86, like dropping in a Blacktop 20v 4AGE...still SM?

BTW I meant BHP not WHP.

A JDM power plant is OK. But a JDM car is not. My Civic has a JDM B18C installed in it... Not quite a Type-R but more that a GS-R engine.

From the 2009 SOLO Rules...

16. STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY

16.1 ALLOWED MODIFICATIONS

1. Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and
badged the same as the original standard or optional engine
for that model. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the
manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps
involving makes related only at a corporate level are not
recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint
venture between manufacturers may utilize any engine from
any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from
the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that
particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with
either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor
from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks
manufactured as production units for sale in other countries
such as Japan or Germany.

[mikeroets]

I think I should be a little more conservative..I think 240hp at altitude is asking a lot (from my budget)..I think 175 WHP is a little more reasonable for me...

[GingerGSR]

I couldn't find the JDM spec car exclusion before, but here it is...

16. STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY

C.VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY

b.Sample Excluded Vehicles:
Porsche, all
Datsun Z car 2+2
Honda CRX
JDM-spec cars
MGB GT
Triumph, all

Here locally, we don't mind anyone running a JDM car in SM/SM-F (I can't speak for the SSM guy's) such as the Neff's EVO or Kirk's Skyline (as long as they don't beat us by too much :rolleyes: ).

[SubySal]

ah OK thanks Mark :)

[cdorsey]

Awesome! Another 86 in the club!
Make sure you stop by and crawl around my car next time you are out. It should give you some ideas. It looks like this now, but may be white the next time you see it. For reference, my car with a built 4AGE makes about the same power as you are looking for and the car only weighs 1700 lbs. Add 10" slicks and you have a big go-cart. Keep the 4AG and run in EP with us. If you are set on an engine swap, lots of guys are using the S2000 motor as well.

[mikeroets]

I washed the engine bay tonight....23 years worth of grease/oil buildup has kept everything shiny and new-looking underneath!

is their a build forum? I feel a new thread coming on

[mikeroets]

Due to some hasty forethoughts...I put the 4ac and auto trans BACK into the car monday afternoon.

My grand scheme was to keep autocross as cheap as possible and have fun. motor swaps and mega HP cost money and Im pretty sure swaps are not required to have fun.

more realistically...Im going to swap the auto for a 5 speed and have already started doing basic cheap stuff to better the car (a/c, p/s, fan clutch delete, weber carb soon etc etc) and go from there.

with no motor swap does that keep me in SM? is that street modified? Im still having trouble picking up the classing lingo...

[GingerGSR]

Yes, SM is Street Modified. The other variants are SM-F = Street Modified FWD and SSM = Super Street Modified. SSM’s are the two seaters or cars that are too light to be in SM/SM-F.
I suggest that you download the 2009 SOLO Rules (http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules/2009_Solo_Rules.pdf)from the SCCA.org website (http://www.scca.org/home.aspx?hub=). Then make a list of all your current/planned mods and read through the classes starting with stock. As you go through all the classes, check off items on your mod list and note which class they are allowed. Once you get to the end of the list you’ll know where you stand. It can be tedious but it’s worth the trouble.
You need to be careful because it’s possible to get stuck in a class where you’re totally out-gunned just by making some seemingly simple change to your car. I know a guy that changed some little hose under the hood and he was “stuck” in SM for it. Don’t get me wrong, SM is a really fun class and we’re having a blast in SM-F due to the close points chase. One nice thing about SM is almost everything is un-restricted. But as it’s been quoted… "SM = Spend Money!!!"

[mannix]

What about FSP? The Corolla is a very good FSP car, and is relatively cheap vs. SM; suspension allowances are almost as generous, but the engine (inside) has to remain stock (any carb/EFI, any header, stock cams/porting/bore/compression).

$M is expensive.



Iain

[mikeroets]

That sounds smart. I might print one off tonight at work when everybody goes home.

I just might be able to participate in the next event....

[Van]

Mike, here is the thread on the corolla forum I started. Lots of good info there regarding building it for autocross....

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=11317

Van

[cdorsey]

Pull the interior, drop some weight and run in E Prepared. Then, as the bug hits you, you have A LOT more freedom to do the things you want. Prepared cars are not much more expensive than SP cars, but you can still do a swap at a later date and stay in Prepared (XP). Remember, in SM the engine has to match the badge on the front of the car, but not in XP.

[PEZi303]

you have A LOT more freedom to do the things you want.
:D i love prepared classes!

[mikeroets]

this is just like school...i need to to stop talking about it and actually do it...I can usually pick up the idea after that....


Im picking up a weber tomorrow evening...im still looking for a manual transmission if anybody knows a good source for cheap toyota parts!

[shredswithpiks]

I couldn't find the JDM spec car exclusion before, but here it is...

16. STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY

C.VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY

b.Sample Excluded Vehicles:
Porsche, all
Datsun Z car 2+2
Honda CRX
JDM-spec cars
MGB GT
Triumph, all

Here locally, we don't mind anyone running a JDM car in SM/SM-F (I can't speak for the SSM guy's) such as the Neff's EVO or Kirk's Skyline (as long as they don't beat us by too much :rolleyes: ).

Just curious... where did you get the quote that includes JDM-spec in the list of sample excluded vehicles? Looking at the PDF you linked for the 2009 Solo Rules, I'm seeing this on page 180:

Class SM
Eligible Vehicles:
All sedans/coupes (models which were originally equipped with a
minimum of four seats and four factory seat belts).
Excluded Vehicles:
Porsche, all
Lotus, all
Nissan / Datsun Z car 2+2, (Pre ’90)
Honda CRX
MGB GT
Triumph, all

[SuperWhiteGT4]

Just curious... where did you get the quote that includes JDM-spec in the list of sample excluded vehicles? Looking at the PDF you linked for the 2009 Solo Rules, I'm seeing this on page 180:

Page 99.

16.C.1.b

[shredswithpiks]

Page 99.

16.C.1.b

Awesome, thanks!

[mikeroets]

I have been skimming the SM rules in the book.....it appears that the stuff I WANT to do to the car would keep it in SM.

If I wanted to limit modifications (keeping the car mostly stock) that would put me in a stock/touring class.....but Id have a stock Toyota corolla...seems not very exciting

[Van]

Mike, if you want a "fast accelerating" corolla then you'll have to go beyond ST/SP build like mine. If you want it to still be streetable then maybe SM is a good fit for you.

I say turbo it or find a supercharged MR2 engine to drop in. Your weight limits are based on what engine you put in so think about that as well.

Also, come out to the next local event and get rides in the various cars to see what class you think you would have fun competiting in.

Van

[Matt Leicester]

Also, come out to the next local event and get rides in the various cars to see what class you think you would have fun competiting in.

Van

....or trucks....:D

[PEZi303]

....or trucks....:D

make that "or truck" Matt.... I can't take anyone in mine :p

[Matt Leicester]

make that "or truck" Matt.... I can't take anyone in mine :p

Oh, I forgot that not everyone has adopted my use of the high performance competition racing bench seat! :eek:

Matt Leicester

[cojsl]

Oh, I forgot that not everyone has adopted my use of the high performance competition racing bench seat! :eek:

Matt Leicester


One of these? ;)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tk5C80PpZB4/Sme5P4wONMI/AAAAAAAAAgM/p8OY7Bd9luM/s800/racing%20bench%20seat.jpg

[Matt Leicester]

That's suhhhh-weeeeeeet! But alas, the whole reason for the bench in the Hotruck is that a high back seat won't fit under a rib in the back of the cab. I'll need the low back version of the racing bench!

Matt Leicester

[mikeroets]

If that was real, you could imagine the minivans around the world that would rock out a sweet bench like that.....










































Im pretty sure I would

[Matt Leicester]

The minivan version would need more belt slots in the middle for the cool Simpson car seat!

[47ford]

One of these? ;)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tk5C80PpZB4/Sme5P4wONMI/AAAAAAAAAgM/p8OY7Bd9luM/s800/racing%20bench%20seat.jpg

Gotta love PS :)

[cojsl]

Gotta love PS :)

Yep, that was paint.net (free, with 80% of PS's function) on my netbook's small screen with a touchpad. Were it done on my main machine on PS, it wouldn't be so obviously bad a 'chop ;)