A few questions

[Hubele]

Hello there, I am hoping to start running this summer season if I can get the days off from my work. I have rode with my brother and a few of his buddies and absolutely loved it. I drive a 2004 Toyota Matrix Xrs. So far I have an axle-back (though they call it a cat-back) exhaust, and a cold air intake. Lowering springs are coming soon and should be on before the first event. From what they have told me and what I've read on the intro section, my car would be in street touring. However until I can get the money I am still on the stock wheels and tires. Would I still be in street touring? Also, I remember reading somewhere that de-badging also changed your class, though I cannot remember where. Is that the case? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks-
Mike

[mannix]

Stock anything is fine in ST - the wheels are a nonissue; there is a width limit in ST, though - 7.5? Something like that, check before you buy wheels.

ST has a specific allowance _for_ removing trim/badging/etc, so that's not a problem, either.


Iain

[Hubele]

The wheels I am looking at are some Motegi's that are only 7 inches wide. So I should be okay, but I will check anyhow. Thank you for the help :)

Mike

[Kaiserserser]

just curious, why does debadging make you bump up in the classes? I can't think of any reason why it would give any kind of advantage.

[Mines2010]

The wheels I am looking at are some Motegi's that are only 7 inches wide. So I should be okay, but I will check anyhow. Thank you for the help :)

Mike
7" wide wheels are ok in ST.

[Hubele]

Well I think where I read it was talking more about trim and such, which I guess on some cars probably older ones would give a weight advantage....maybe?

[LoCore]

Well I think where I read it was talking more about trim and such, which I guess on some cars probably older ones would give a weight advantage....maybe?

Kind of depends on what one is considering "trim". As Iain, said, there are specific provisions in the rules for what *can* be removed. Things not on that last need to stay on the car.

[mannix]

Stock is the only category which mandates stock badges, and you *could* get away with _replacing_ them.

There are several categories:

Stock
Street Touring
Street Prepared
Street Modified
Prepared
Modified
Karts (but for this discussion, they're out on their own)

Confusing, but that's the ascending order in terms of allowances/prep levels.

ST and SP both have a line which basically says "mud flaps, factory emblems and rub strips may be removed." Something like that.

In the rulebook, there's a mantra - "if it does not say you can, you can't."

Stock *needs* to be very restrictive. We time to the thousandth of a second, and every little bit can be an advantage. By itself, "debadging" would not make a car much faster (it would, naturally, make the car incrementally faster, as lighter = faster - but that's a fine hair to split).

There are a lot of people who think "Stock" allowances are TOO generous - you can replace shocks (with double adjustable custom valved deals), any front swaybar, brake pads, catback exhaust, etc - and don't forget R compound tires.

The one place where you could probably get away with messing with badging is under the "comfort and convenience" rule - essentially, there's a rule which says you can do stuff that does not materially affect the weight of the car & does not add a performance advantage. It is there to allow the addition of stereo junk, speakers, gauges, maybe, uhhh, window louvres? Racing stripes? Silly stuff that is not STOCK, but people might like to add to their car. Shift knobs. E-brake boots.

I'd think you could get away with _replacing_ your factory emblems with, say, the Euro version (VW Bora vs Jetta, for example).

Removing them outright? Not technically legal; it IS a weight reduction. Tiny, but undeniable. One could argue that their removal does not "materially" reduce the weight of the car - what is a "material reduction?" Tough to say, and people will differ. I tend to be of the opinion that it just does not matter - but I left them on my car until the rule changed for my category (SP). Removing all the factory trim and badging and rubstrips on my car saved about 10 pounds (there are two HUGE rubstrips on old BMWs that weigh a fair bit each; 9.5 of the 10 pounds came from those). I'd not protest a competitor for a debadged car, but I probably would suggest that they put them back on - even if you KNOW your car is otherwise legal, if OTHER people think yours IS illegal, and you get it in your head that they might protest you, your driving will suffer. Autocrossers can be a creative bunch - if someone moves here from, say, California, and starts beating EVERYONE, their competitors can come up with some Really Weird suspicions as to what's been done to that car(or truck), ill will starts brooding, it is ridiculous, but it happens - and when a competitor has a missing headlight or missing trim "what other rules is he ignoring" starts floating around people's minds pretty quickly.

It seems silly, and you'd not likely get protested for it, even at Nationals - but if you went to Nationals with a debadged car, some people would get itchy about it.

Dunno. I can absolutely see the "that's silly" side - but if you add up several "that's silly" things, you might wind up with an advantage - and .005 seconds is not a long period of time. The longer you play this game, once you lose an event by .0xx, it starts to matter - you want to know your competitors are in compliance, and you want to know your car is in compliance - so you leave the badges on.

Go to scca.com --> solo --> results archives, start looking at Nationals results, focus on Stock category, look at how tightly packed the top 5 or 10 cars are - in some of the Stock classes, the first ten cars are often separated by less than half a second - over two days.

Little things can mean a lot.



Iain

[Swanson]

What if we got the car without badges?

[Tom Hunsinger]

I really suggest that everyone read the rules. There is a link in the left margin of this page for the National Solo Rules and another for the supplemental rules for RMSolo. What you don't know not only can, but probably will hurt you or at least spoil your day. If you need clarification feel free to ask but you really need to be somewhat familiar with the rules you need to follow.

What if we got the car without badges?

I don't see how buying a car without badging changes the rules that apply to it. For Winter events no one cares. The driver is always responsible for making sure that the car is in the correct class. Research and asking questions will let you know where you should run and what other classes are options for you. If you run in the wrong class you always risk being protested. For the most part we are an easy going lot but if you start winning the class or perhaps beat the wrong person, you will need to be prepared for a protest. Tech does not class the car, you do.

[Swanson]

Well the badges for my car can be somewhat difficult to get. In addition to that, there aren't many of them ("GT6+" on the back end and on the hood and "TRIUMPH" on the back). Would this make a significant difference to some people? And would any of them understand my dilemma?

[mannix]

It'd only matter if you were running the car in Stock category and winning. Run in Stock & win, it'd be pretty weenie to protest over that, and I doubt anyone would, but it is not technically legal. There are rules that allow you to replace items with the "next closest" currently available, provided no performance advantage and similar specs on out of production bits, but that'd allow you to simply have some _made_. For example, I'm pretty sure the flywheel in my car is no longer available from the manufacturer, so I could have one made - but I could not have a superlight aluminum one made because of that rule, it'd have to be as close to stock as possible, but it'd not have to be OEM.

Don't stress over badges on a car that old; if you start winning in Stock, you'll be doing great! Is it truly still "stock?"

Old cars are cool (I am assuming you have a late60s-early 70s GT6+).


Iain

[Swanson]

1970, still stock with minor tuning done to the carbs by a previous owner. I wanted to do some conversions with performance parts such as a triple Weber carb kit, new sway bars, new shocks, and increased displacement by using TR6 parts.

[Chris_Swearingen]

1970, still stock with minor tuning done to the carbs by a previous owner. I wanted to do some conversions with performance parts such as a triple Weber carb kit (*sp), new sway bars(*front stock, *rear not stock), new shocks(*stock), and increased displacement by using TR6 parts(*welcome to street mod:) ).

I added where I think those mods would put you. I suggest reading the rule book a couple of times before you mod too much. Some seemingly simple things can put you in a class you may not want to be in.

[mannix]

From a competitiveness standpoint, that car would be MUCH better suited in FSP. It is likely uncompetitive in stock, where you're limited to stock width wheels, springs, header, carbs, etc.

In FSP (which specifically lists the "GT-6," but not "GT-6+" - not sure if that's an issue, I'm not intimately familiar with Triumphs), the inside of the motor has to stay stock - you can deck the head to the factory minimum, bore .040" over, but that's about it. OUTSIDE the motor is a different story - any header, any exhaust, any intake, any ignition, any fuel system (EFI is fine, and recommended, IMHO), any wheel, any spring, any shock, lots of "any" in there.

I can help you with the SP rules; they're a bit funky, but older cars are a good fit in SP.



Iain (and you can remove badges/trim, too!)

[ChrisBitner]

IMO, part of the badge rule in stock has to do with knowing what car model you're looking at since they're often in different classes. For example, the base RSX is in HS, RXS-S is in GS. If someone took the RSX-S badge off and tried to run in HS, his competitors wouldn't be able to tell what car it is unless they knew the specific differences under the hood/chassis/etc.

[66stang347]

IMO, part of the badge rule in stock has to do with knowing what car model you're looking at since they're often in different classes. For example, the base RSX is in HS, RXS-S is in GS. If someone took the RSX-S badge off and tried to run in HS, his competitors wouldn't be able to tell what car it is unless they knew the specific differences under the hood/chassis/etc.

So why couldnt you just rebadge to a lower model? AKA "sleeper"

[Swanson]

I added where I think those mods would put you. I suggest reading the rule book a couple of times before you mod too much. Some seemingly simple things can put you in a class you may not want to be in.

Ah yes but without those TR6 parts (they add 500cc but don't require boring, up from 2000cc), the engine is too small to make any real difference with triple carbs.

The GT6+ is a standard GT6 Mk2 but they called it that because that was the year when they gave it its own frame and everything else instead of using the old Triumph Herald's. The common knowledge for anyone with these cars was that the Triumph Herald's parts were mediocre for itself, bad for the Spitfire, and absolutely horrible for the GT6.

Plus the stock exhaust has already been removed for a glasspack from the 70's (which I'm hoping won't be too loud).

Would this car's weight provide a significant difference too? It weighs something around 1700 lbs.

[Van]

Light is good for autocross. 1700lbs is sweet!

If you built it for Street Prepared, then that would be awesome.

For the record, I sold my 1975 Triumph TR6 on craigslist a couple years ago. It sold in 15 minutes!

Van

[cojsl]

IMO, part of the badge rule in stock has to do with knowing what car model you're looking at since they're often in different classes. For example, the base RSX is in HS, RXS-S is in GS. If someone took the RSX-S badge off and tried to run in HS, his competitors wouldn't be able to tell what car it is unless they knew the specific differences under the hood/chassis/etc.

Good point

Does the opposite of this work- making a base car faster by badging it like the higher trim? I saw a 90 Accord with big VTEC stickers down the side and a VTEC badge on the trunk, surely those must make it faster, right? ;)

(I know, I know, he could have engine swapped his 90 accord sedan....)

[GingerGSR]

Good point

Does the opposite of this work- making a base car faster by badging it like the higher trim? I saw a 90 Accord with big VTEC stickers down the side and a VTEC badge on the trunk, surely those must make it faster, right? ;)

(I know, I know, he could have engine swapped his 90 accord sedan....)

It's the Type-R badging that will make it really fast, especially on a Hyundai. :rolleyes:

[Matt Leicester]

I don't know - Tom Ellam has VTEC badging on his Mazda RX-3 (yes, a rotary!), and he has won a bazillion national championships with that car. DSP, CSP, EP... Maybe you don't need the Type R stickies:p

Matt Leicester

[mannix]

Saucy used to have the red R on the BMW.

Not just ANY red R, as found on a TypeR, but a PUFFY one.

T'was rad.


Iain

[Van]

A few years ago I was gridded next to this Mitsubishi Impreza Evolution with a Magnum V8. :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Vanimaniac/Other%20Car%20Pics/ConfusedSubie.jpg

Van

[Swanson]

Light is good for autocross. 1700lbs is sweet!

If you built it for Street Prepared, then that would be awesome.

For the record, I sold my 1975 Triumph TR6 on craigslist a couple years ago. It sold in 15 minutes!

Van

Could the glasspack make it too loud? And is Street Prepared really a good class for a novice?

[BarryOtt]

Could the glasspack make it too loud? And is Street Prepared really a good class for a novice?

I'd bet you're under 103dBa, but 93dBa might be interesting?? No guarantees, of course. Ideally, you'd go to a PPIR event first (103dBa DNF's) before you go to a more restrictive site.

I'd say SP is fine for a novice, certainly FSP! Like others said, older cars struggle to be competitive in stock classes for a few reasons, but the SP allowances make them much easier to be legal and competitive. Don't worry, just go have fun. :)

Barry Ott
Chief-o-Sound
'94 Miata R (white), E-Stock

[GingerGSR]

Could the glasspack make it too loud?
Probably, but you'll never really know until you run. The sound reading can be very counterintuitive. A car you "think" sounds OK will read high and then a car that seems loud will read under the limit. It depends on so many factors it almost impossible to predict.

And is Street Prepared really a good class for a novice?
Unless you have the chance to build a car to a certain rule set, it’s “run what ya brung”.
I started this addiction as a novice in Street Mod in ’07. The only DFL I’ve had was at Nat’s in ’08. Anything is possible!

[cojsl]

A few years ago I was gridded next to this Mitsubishi Impreza Evolution with a Magnum V8. :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Vanimaniac/Other%20Car%20Pics/ConfusedSubie.jpg

Van

Van wins

[mannix]

Class is somewhat irrelevant for a novice - just the decals on the door. It takes some time for _anyone_ to figure out how to see through the cones. FSP is simply the most realistic class for that car - 2 liters, 104hp stock, rear wheel drive, and from what I can find, ~2000#. (any reference to 1700# seemed to be associated with the Spitfire - found this:
http://www.carsplusplus.com/specs1970/triumph_gt6.php).

If it really is 1700#, it'll be a VERY good FSP car, once all of the FSP tricks are done.

In Stock, the car itself will not likely keep up with Minis and BMW 318is' and the other stuff in HS - 07 Rabbit, Porsche 924, etc. The narrow wheels will kill it, if nothing else. It'd be _fun_ in HS, I'm sure - but if you want to modify the car a bit, FSP will be a much better fit.

That said, don't worry too much about the class until you've come out and had fun for a few events.

I'd say SP is fine for a novice, certainly FSP!

If I could bring a fit a big enough ladder in the van, I'd give you a noogie.


IAIN

[Swanson]

Ok, thank you everyone for the help. :D

[Swanson]

Would anyone just so happen to know where I could get a stepped manifold?

[mannix]

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/Catalogpages/triumph.htm

No idea if it is "stepped" or not, but they list one.

I'll cast my vote right now for bypassing triple Webers & going straight to EFI. EFI is probably _cheaper_ than triple Webers at this point, and once set up, it works like, well, a modern car.

I've had dual DCOEs on a couple of VWs and most recently my BMW (68 2002). By the time I got to the 2002, I was relatively good at making the stupid things work. The car ran fairly well, but it was still a car with carbs, and it irritated me.

Put EFI on it ~4 years ago - a bunch of stock BMW bits (manifold/throttle body/fuel rail), used injectors off a Saab, and Megasquirt.

It was pretty easy to make it run; downloaded a baseline map from some guy with a 2002. That made it run and go. Then, we drove around with a narrowband 02 sensor gauge, and adjusted things based on that. Ran even better. Took it to the dyno, wideband, blah blah blah, found ~8hp in ~2 hours, it runs great now.

It is almost like a modern car; I've not REALLY spent the time to make the cold start routine perfect, but if it is above ~40d and the battery is charged (tiny motorcycle battery), you can reach in, turn the key and light it off. Vroom.

Yeah, carbs are proper and correct and all that crap, and Webers are as good as they get (IMHO), but having done both, I'd sail right past the carb aisle and get EFI. Probably a bit more time to set it up - running return lines, fitting a high pressure pump, wiring relays and tapping stuff for coolant temp sensors and all that, but in the past four years, I've not changed one jet, emulsion tube, or air corrector. I've not had the syncometer stuck in the air horns, trying to figure out what moved. I've not had my mickey-mouse jet-hat-cap-thing try to fall off. I've not had stupid washers break, gaskets leak, etc etc etc.

It is delightful. Carbs suck. Frame the kilt and bagpipes, come to the dark side. It really is better.



Iain

[Swanson]

Yes, that is all very true, but converting all of the electronics over from Lucas (known as "the Prince of Darkness") would take more money than doing the carbs. Plus, I've wanted to maintain that old British car feel by keeping it carbureted and using as many Triumph parts as I can.

And I've already contaced Pierce Manifolds and that one is not stepped.

[mannix]

blah blah blah.

You don't have to convert much - the OE electrical system will still suck. The wiring is the easy/cheap part. You're adding a fair bit of wiring.

I guess you would have to get a consistent 12v out of the Lucas stuff. That could be expensive, never mind....

You'll learn;).

Well, maybe not - you admit to owning an AMC;).



Iain (that old British car feel is the choking and sputtering as it grinds to a halt? Heh, can't resist, don't be offended, all intended to be in fun)

[Swanson]

I love my AMC. :D
It runs beautifully for something that wasn't taken care of for the past 5 years.
I'd love to do EFI. But first, carbs. And I'm not really worried about the wiring. Just everything with "LUCAS" written on it. I hated every minute of having to get a reman'd Lucas alternator.

[GingerGSR]

(that old British car feel is the choking and sputtering as it grinds to a halt? Heh, can't resist, don't be offended, all intended to be in fun)
"I love the smell of raw petrol in the morning. It's the smell of... a British car!" (ducks thrown knock-off wrench).
My brother had a '70...? '71...? MGB-GT when we we're in high school. Coolest car "we've" ever owned.

[Swanson]

Ah, my arch nemesis the MGB's. :D
Do you know what engine?

[GingerGSR]

Ah, my arch nemesis the MGB's. :D
Do you know what engine?
Aaaaaa, 4 cylinder, dual carbs, very clean and well maintained. That's about it.
My ride was a '73 Monte Carlo... 350 SB, 4 bbl, 350 Turbo-Hydro lead-sled! It would hang with the Camaro's & TA's of the early '80's though. Sort of a 4000 lb sleeper (with factory 8 track no less). :cool:

[Swanson]

The Monte Carlo sounds fun, but the MGB-GT needed the I6. :D

[Swanson]

Someone told me that the 4 cylinder ones ran roughly.

[Swanson]

Ok, I finally found the manifold I was looking for. Were they the dual Stromberg carbs?

[GingerGSR]

Ok, I finally found the manifold I was looking for. Were they the dual Stromberg carbs?
I don't remember. I spent most of my under the hood of my car. ;)

[Swanson]

Always works. :D

[GingerGSR]

Ok, I finally found the manifold I was looking for. Were they the dual Stromberg carbs?

I just talked to my brother. He said they were SU side draft carbs.

[Swanson]

I have those. They're not bad.