Brake pad recomendations

[ncaruso]

I plan on getting into TT this year and could use some Brake pad recommendations. I currently run Hawk HP's, however I am fairly sure I will exceed their operating temp. on the track

The car is a Volkswagen Jetta; front wheel drive and nose heavy, that is still driven on the street a good amount. I would prefer not to swap pads on race day as well.

any and all recommendations are appreciated.

[Built-By-Bones]

I plan on getting into TT this year and could use some Brake pad recommendations. I currently run Hawk HP's, however I am fairly sure I will exceed their operating temp. on the track

The car is a Volkswagen Jetta; front wheel drive and nose heavy, that is still driven on the street a good amount. I would prefer not to swap pads on race day as well.

any and all recommendations are appreciated.

If you dont want to swap pads, then the HP's are probably fine

If you dont mind loud, squeaky and sudden bite when cold then try the Hawk Blues. Best pad I have found for the Subaru, but probably not to most people's liking for daily driver duty. Superb pads for the track, and not bad for street use.

You can always use the Blue's and swap out at home before or after the event. I have heard complaints that the Blue brake dust can eat wheels, but apart from lots of dust, the wheels on the Suby are fine.

just MHO

[ncaruso]

I really dont care if they eat my wheels, I am more "go" than "show"

As long as the "blues" will stop when cold, all of that sounds great.

Would you recomend them on all four corners? I know some people run differnt compounds front and rear on the track, I dont have any experience with this yet.

thanks again

[delirium45]

Nick i would try to find some Jetta guys that are experienced with track days... and see what they recommend. You might find what is good for one car is not for another. Even in same family.

Example: i used to run the Hawk HP+ (on the front and HPS on rear) on my BMW 330i, they were great, never got away from me over the 6-7 track days i put in.
When i got my M3 (more power and a little more weight) i put in an almost new set of HP+ (same pad for both cars) for a test day in Pueblo and after 2 laps the pads were overheated. After checking in with the M3Forum guys they all say the HP+ is good for nothing beyond autox in the M3 and that a more aggressive pad is required for track duty.

Just my 2cents... don't want you to go buy a pad that you cannot use.

I hope this serves to confuse and inspire you... see you at the PDX/TT's this year !

[mannix]

Dated .02c on Hawk Blues - maybe they've changed, but I'd be leery of them for daily driving use.

I put a set on my VW GTI in ~98 or so. Brand new, new rotors. Drove to Topeka, did 9 runs max (warmup + Nationals), drove home. By the time I got home, my braking performance was pretty dramatically off - squishy pedal, and the car did STOP, but it was not good.

Long story short, the "metal shop" taste I was getting in my mouth during runs @ Topeka when I got on the brakes hard was pretty evident once I looked - the pads had eaten the rotors far enough that the piston was fully extended, hence the lousy braking.

The PAD dust is not a big deal. The rotor particulate is. Especially if it rains at some point, you get a rust-crust on the wheel that is a bear to get off.

I liked the pads a LOT. They stopped cold just fine. However, destroying a set of rotors in ~1200 miles of street driving (really only about 300, if you think about it - 8 hours each way to Topeka, not much braking going on for those 1100 miles), plus the fossilized rotor material on my wheels, ehhh, I did not buy again.

I liked the Carbotech Kelated Greens or whatever they were. IMHO, the Blues are GREAT for the track bit, but they do a number on rotors getting warmed up. For an autocross car, they never get hot and STAY hot, so the rotors disappear. Fast. I'd swap them out when changing tires, if I were doing track days - adds ~5 minutes a side, once you get good at it.

Maybe they've changed - that'd be good, because they absolutely did what was claimed; they stopped great. It was the other stuff that was too much for me.


Iain (they did make neat stripes of metalbits on my magnets, though)

[Matt Leicester]

Talk to the folks at Porterfield - they make their own pads and also sell about every brand you have ever heard of as well. I ran the R 4S pads on the Hotruck, fine cold and never an issue at Trials, but then I pretty much never broke 70 mph at Second Creek! We run R-4-1 on the back of the Miata which is a crazy dirty pad, but all brake dust, no rotor particles, and excellent cold or hot.
www.porterfield-brakes.com

Matt Leicester

[mannix]

I should make something clear - my experience should NOT be taken as a
slam on the Hawks; I was using them in a manner not recommended by the manufacturer; they warned me that they'd be "hard on rotors" on a daily driven car - they were absolutely right.

It is a roadrace pad, intended to get hot and continue to work while hot.

It is not intended to be an autocross pad.

Hawk makes great pads, and they've got a pad for every application. I chose to use the not-recommended pad. I might do it again on a TRAILERED car, but adding daily driving to the mix was a bad idea - and they warned me.

Again, maybe things have changed, just be aware that when Hawk says "hard on rotors," they mean it;).



Iain

[ncaruso]

I saw on their website that the blues have "above average" rotor wear when cold, so your assessment seems correct Ian.

A nice member on here recommended the Carbotech Panther. any experience?

How much does the 330i weight? would assume that my jetta weighs less (2900lbs), so if the HP+ works for a 330i.....

[delirium45]

How much does the 330i weight? would assume that my jetta weighs less (2900lbs), so if the HP+ works for a 330i.....

The 330i in auto-x trim weighed in around 3,250 (w/driver & 1/2 tank gas).
The M3 is about 3,400 (w/driver & 1/2 tank gas).

[Solo2GS]

I have run quite a variety of pads over the years and to date my favorate has been Carbotech (http://www.ctbrakes.com/).

I have used thier race pads on the street at cold temps with no problem. Dusty, but no issues other then that!

The trick with swapping pads is, it is OK as long as they are the same material. Ie. brand. If they are two different they won't bed in properly. It is also very important to bed them in. It is also good to start with a turned or new rotor when swapping pad brands.

As far as pad life, go with the proper pad for the proper job. Race pads are made for the heat that lap after lap will generate and they will last longer then a street pad in the situation. Keeping your brakes cool will also help pad life (Ie. brake air ducting)...

[fsmtnbiker]

The HP+ work great on a track with lots of cooling time, and for a novice/intermediate DE driver. Once you really start pushing the limits, though, they go away pretty quickly. Having seen you drive, I suspect you would overwhelm the HP+s pretty quickly.

Unfortunately, the real answer is that no pad that is acceptable on the street is going to work *well* on the track. There are a lot of dual use pads that _work_, but they end up making compromises on both sides of the spectrum. After riding in a car with Hawk HT-10s on both ends, I decided that screwing around with "street/race" pads was totally illogical. The time to swap them is more than offset by the consistent, excellent stopping power they provide.

FWIW, I know many people that drive to and from the track with HT10's in the car and don't have issues with them wearing the rotors at an amazing rate. I have heard of more than one occasion that the Blues have done exactly what Iain described... I would stay away from them. As I understand, the HT10/14 dust is much less aggressive... However, any really aggressive track pad is going to wear the rotor more while cold. They're abrasive until they get hot.

[ncaruso]

well, at least someone understands my driving style, lol.

Switching pads and rotors every track day sounds like kind of a pain, but I certainly understand the benefits. Adding that I would need to switch everything back before driving to work on Monday is also a set back.

I think I would be able to deal with a compromise somewhere for a season, before the car gets retired from Daily Driving duties.

As my first year of TT will be an experiment in many aspects of the car's current set up, the brakes will be no different. I appreciate everyone's input, I will hopefully have some review on what did, of did not work, in the next few months.

[LoCore]

What Chris said.

I run HT-10s on the M3, but it's not a daily driver. It is driven to the track.

[tronic]

I ran 1 track event in my old 27-2800lb GTI VR6 and about 4 PDX/lapping days in my 2600lb Integra GSR on Axxis/PBR Ultimate pads. They are awesome for autox, not too aggressive for daily driving, and held up OK on the track for most sessions of 15 minutes or less. They would fade after that but not in a dramatic fashion and I could still put down many more laps at 75%.

I switched to a set of Cobalt GT Sports for my Integra at the last track day at Pueblo and they are MUCH better than the Axxis Ultimates in their ability to take the heat. I was very happy with them. Still usable for daily driving though they bite HARD (too hard for winter), but I will be running them in the summer for daily+autox+track. Their temperature range is about 200 degrees higher than the Ultimates and all other dual-duty performance pads I found for my car. I would highly recommend them.

[blrmotorsports]

I second everything Ian had to say about the Hawk Blues for a street driven car. DON'T DO IT.

I've used Porterfield R4's and R4E's on a street driven car with no problems. They do dust pretty bad, but rotor wear is only very slightly more than normal pads. They'll take just about all the heat you can throw at them on the track.

I did find the R4E's had lower stopping abilities when cold. Like 30degF or less morning cold. But after a couple of normal stops at lights and such were just fine. Almost back to normal. I didn't/wouldn't think twice about putting them on a dual use car again.

[GingerGSR]

...they warned me that they'd be "hard on rotors" on a daily driven car - they were absolutely right.

Here's what the Hawk Blues did to my front rotors last season. I estimate around 700 miles total driving on them. :eek: 1/2 in AX/TT conditions and 1/2 street/highway. My car will be trailered everywhere from now on! :rolleyes:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii127/GingerGSR/1996%20Civic%20EX%20Coupe/IMG_1053C.jpg

[cojsl]

Cool pic Mark!

[John Scheier]

I am running a pad by Cobalt called the 'Spec VR'. I don't see it listed on their site anymore, but it works really well on track. I have driven with them on the street. Noisy, need some heat to stop and dusty... but it can be done. These pads are too aggressive for auto-x, so I only run them for track days.

I'm not sure if it is my technique or the pad, but my rotors are just fine, and a simple re-bedding with my street pads following re-install is all it takes to get back to normal.

Marks photos look like my old rotors did after a season with Blues.

[gordon0412]

I'm ran the Hawk HPS pads on my car last year for two days at PMP, and they held up great for me who is definitely in the aforementioned beginner, intermediate group. The S (street) version makes much less dust and noise than the HP Plus pads. That said, they did wear pretty quickly (I put HP Plus pads on last weekend), and are not cheap. And yes, I had to turn and have the rotors machined due to wear from the pads. Next up are the $40 rotors from NAPA which apparently work and hold up pretty well on these cars.

[Maxx schlick]

How about a set of Cobalt GTS, now thats a set of pads!! But you will need 20 pistons to put the squeeze on them. 12 in front and 8 in back. Don't hit the brakes without your belts on!!
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o14/maxxschlick/ZZZEEEDDD/DSCF0003.jpg

[delirium45]

i've got 4 [brake caliper] pistons total... that means i'll be going faster right ?

btw; Nick what did you end up going with ?

[Maxx schlick]

i've got 4 [brake caliper] pistons total... that means i'll be going faster right ?

btw; Nick what did you end up going with ?

Yes, less weight= faster.
But my walet is lighter by $718 for those Cobalt pads. So I will go faster and stop faster!!

[ncaruso]

Due to budget constraints, I will be going with the HP+ pads for now. I still need to drive the car on the street for another few months.

I am banking on my car being lighter to really help me out. I will try to devise some ducting as well to help with cooling.


Thanks for everyone’s input.

[EGbeater]

Due to budget constraints, I will be going with the HP+ pads for now. I still need to drive the car on the street for another few months.

I understand the budget reasons... I was shocked to learn how much real track/race pads cost.

I am currently using Carbotech XP12 on the front of my Evo, and Carbotech XP10s in the rear. They do work well, and they were SLIGHTLY cheaper than the other popular options for Evos (Hawk DTC-70s and Performance Friction PF01s being the other choices), and are purportedly generate the least corrosive dust possible for a "real" track pad. I am fairly happy with them, but I am probably going to switch to DTC-70s next in search of more stopping power.

I am banking on my car being lighter to really help me out. I will try to devise some ducting as well to help with cooling.

Definitely do the ducting. I didn't bother for my first five? six? track days in the Evo, and paid for it in terms of frustration at the events by having to come off track before I was ready/willing to, wasting precious time bleeding brake fluid I'd boiled, not to mention being slightly dangerous by trying to run at speed w/o adequate, reliable braking.

I also cost myself $100 per caliper by frying all of the rubber pistons seals, necessitating a total rebuild of my front calipers:

http://www.girodisc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=29_62_493&products_id=385

Really hot brake rotors and pads also wear more quickly than cooler ones. So you could argue that you're SAVING cost by adding brake ducts to make your other brake components last longer.

Your car is fairly high-powered Nick. Here's the unavoidable fact: The faster the car, the MORE BRAKES you'll need. Unless your car is Lotus-Elise-light, it's still gonna need a lot of braking capability for track duty.

[ncaruso]

I appreciate the advice! I am working on a brake ducting solution right now. Unfortunatly not many people have done it on a MK 4 vw.

As this is my first year on teh track, I am sure there are lots of areas of the car that need attention. (driver too)

[Solo2GS]

You will have to laugh, but my first setup of brake air ducts was using parts from home depot! It worked! Other then the hi-temp tubing that I got else where, you can do a lot with what you can find at home depot and cutting your own air damn to pop rivet and wire tie it all into place! :)

With the lay out of HPR it is going to be a brake intensive track, say compared to Pueblo or LaJunta. There are plenty of areas to pick up a lot of speed before having to brake!

http://www.highplainsraceway.com/images/track-map-large3.gif