Alcohol Injection question

[Warrtalon]

Ok, so I was notified by Lindsay, the Safety Steward, that my alcohol injection setup is not allowed at SCCA Solo events period. I'm trying to get some clarification on this, because I don't understand a few things:

1) In SM, which is where I belong normally, it allows for water injection. My kit is a water injection kit, but I just spray alcohol for increased tuning leverage. I could use water, alcohol, methanol, washer fluid, or any combination of those fluids. Each one requires a different custom tune, though, so I can't just randomly switch to water for events. I know alcohol injection isn't specifically mentioned, but neither is washer fluid injection. Is it that picky?

2) Ok, so even if I can't run SM, is there absolutely no class whatsoever, no matter how high it is (e.g. FP) where I can run my lightly-modded Evo with stock suspension that happens to have alky injection for cooling purposes? Other racing associations don't seem to have a problem with it - it's not voodoo. Is there some special safety problem with me having a 1-gallon tank of denatured alcohol that pumps through stainless steel braided lines and sprays into my intercooler pipe? What safety concern is there that is so great that I can't compete? Have there been incidents in the past to warrant this?

3) If the Jr. carts are allowed to use methanol as their primary fuel, then what is the difference? Is that not as "dangerous" as my setup? What if a Jr. cart with catches fire with methanol burning all over it? Then what is the procedure?

Bottom line is alcoholy injection is a very simple and safe mod. It's not nitrous and it's not voodoo magic. It's a viable racing mod that helps with cooling purposes kinda like the nitrous intercooler sprayers. Evos are running around with those in SCCA events as well as alcohol injection. If it's simply not allowed, then I suppose they are getting lucky. If it is a major safety concern that SCCA can't handle, but that other racing associations can, then I'll have to live with it, but I'd sure love to continue with the SCCA-RM region. If SCCA can handle cars running methanol as their primary fuel, I'd think they could handle my minimalistic setup. I'd change to water injection if I could, but it's not feasible without being able to retune for it each time and then retune again for alky for daily driving.

[Dylans]

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to have it. Afterall, you race with a gigantic tank of gasoline strapped to the back of your car, infact we all do.

[Proxenus]

My understanding is that our events do not have the capabilities/equipment to handle an alcohol fire. Doesn't burning alcohol have no visible flame?

You might be willing to take that risk with your car, but I as a corner worker who have no idea about any of this don't think I want to be in that situation. I could be running up to assist you and get burned up.

I'm just also going to preemtively say a couple other things too:

You might think it will never happen to your setup where it will catch fire. Everyone who has ever been in an accident said the same thing. Even if your connections are secure, you never know when you might run over a cone and it gets sucked in the engine bay.

You may have to get up into some level of roadracing before it is allowed. Workers at roadracing events are REQUIRED to be trained to handle fires with materials like that. The workers are also more prepared/protected and so are you as required by the rules. Whereas at an autocross you may have a 16 year old that just learned how to drive trying to put out your fire wearing shorts and flip flops.

Hope that helps.

[Proxenus]

I forgot to add, I'm not sure about your kart question. I always thought they ran on pump gas or pre-mix for the 2 strokes. I'm sure someone else will chime in about it who knows.

[kirstein]

Ultimately it comes down to this. The SCCA sanctions our events and requires us to run by their rules. The first rule is, if it doesn't say it's allowed, it's not allowed. Here is their rule for fuel:


"3.6 FUEL
A. Stock and Street Touring Class vehicles will use service station
pump fuel only. Pump fuel is defined as that which is “Federally
approved for use on public highways.” This does not allow
racing-type fuels which are available at service station pumps.
B. Street Prepared, Street Modified, Prepared, and Modified class
vehicles may use diesel fuel or any grade of gasoline. Gasolines
consist entirely of hydrocarbon compounds. Gasoline may
contain antioxidants, metal deactivators, corrosion inhibitors
and lead alkyl compounds such as tetraethyl lead. Oxygen and/
or nitrogen bearing additives are prohibited, except for those
originally present in service station pump fuel. Oxygen and/or
nitrogen bearing oil additives are prohibited in two-cycle engine
oiling systems.
........etc.

The ST rules only allow water injection, not any other material. Right now I don't see anything in the rules that would allow your system.

[blrmotorsports]

"Water Injection" for cooling is allowed under the SP rules, thus allowing it in SM. You are using alcohol, which burns in the engine, thus making it a fuel. SP rules state that only gasoline and diesel are the only allowed fuels.

[PaulL]

There is an exception to 3.6 in the 2006 rulebook:

19.2 FORMULA JUNIOR
A. CLASSES
1. Formula Junior A (formerly FJ2 and FJ4)
a.AGE: 12 years to 15 years
b.ENGINES:
1. Briggs & Stratton Raptor.
A.FUEL: Gas or Methanol

So, FJ karts are specifically allowed to run methanol, but all other vehicles in all other classes must run pump gas, gasoline, propane, CNG or diesel.

So there is clearly no automobile class that allows alcohol to be used in any manner ... for fuel or for cooling.

Can you empty the alcohol reservoir before you come to the events?

[LoCore]

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to have it. Afterall, you race with a gigantic tank of gasoline strapped to the back of your car, infact we all do.

Yes, but the rules permit the use of gas :-)

Remember that with the SCCA rulebook, if it isn't explicitly permitted, it isn't allowed. There are no "don't see why you shouldn't be able to" or "it sure seems reasonable" clauses in that rulebook.

[lundgren]

Maybe you should right a letter the SEB and present your case why running alcholol should be legal in SM (or any other class).

Right now it sounds like its not legal for that class, much like I couldn't take my Elise and put a turbo kit on it, and run in SM (or for that matter SM2, unless I added 400 lbs to the car).

The SEB makes the rules, and is comprised of participants in the sport, membes of SCCA of course, their not administrators, but fellow competitors.

[Van]

Here's a recent and lengthy thread on sccaforums regarding this very topic.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/179867/ShowThread.aspx

Van

[LoCore]

Looks like "Warrtalon" has participated in that thread as well.

I second Jeff's suggestion to write a letter to the SEB at least for clarification, if not a rule change to allow the mod that you want. They may say no, but at least you'll get a "ruling".

For now, however, it appears to be an illegal mod IMO. My co-driver and I run in SM, and will be interested to see how this unfolds. Especially if you start beating us. :D

[russjnco]

Personally, I think the ruling is already in the rule book. There isn't even a way to interpret it as being legal anywhere within the text.

[Dylans]

What about CO2 injection for cooling? I don't know whether it is counted as a fuel or not.

[MrViggy]

What about CO2 injection for cooling? I don't know whether it is counted as a fuel or not.
Co2 injected into the intake?

Viggy

[jhadler]

CO2? To what end? To rob you of power?

I guess you could use dry ice to cool down your intake manifold or intercooler between runs. But even then, you can't use it on course...

-Josh2

[Dylans]

I don't really know much about it, just heard it could be used as a substitute to Nitrous for cooling. Dry injection just to cool the intake charge.

[Warrtalon]

Looks like "Warrtalon" has participated in that thread as well.

I second Jeff's suggestion to write a letter to the SEB at least for clarification, if not a rule change to allow the mod that you want. They may say no, but at least you'll get a "ruling".

For now, however, it appears to be an illegal mod IMO. My co-driver and I run in SM, and will be interested to see how this unfolds. Especially if you start beating us. :D

I did write a letter, but I don't expect them to answer. We will see what happens. I'm sure they get a lot of junk mail, so I don't even know my inquiry will be read.

I'm not so much interested in changing the rules so much as I am wanting them to verify that when they added "water injection" that they meant to specifically EXCLUDE all of the many combinations people use in water injection systems. Typically, "water injection" is just the catch-all term for the device I am using. I just HAPPEN to use 100% denatured alcohol. Others use 100% methanol. Some use washer fluid. Some use distilled water. Many use a combination of two from the above. If the SEB specifically meant to EXCLUDE those other fluids (why washer fluid??), then that is fine. If by saying that only gasoline and diesel can be used, they meant to EXCLUDE an extremely small amount of atomized alcohol sprayed into the intake tract, then that's fine, too. But, it seems more logical that the fuel rule was meant to exclude things like nitromethane and that "water injection" was just the name they chose without going into great detail. I could bey quite wrong, but that's what I hope to find out.

Nevertheless, due to the extreme riff this has caused and the incredible flak i've received via email, I've decided to go through all the trouble of spending the time and money before each event to empty my tank, fill it with distilled water, find 100oct gas somewhere, retune myself on top of my custom flash by using an old SAFC, and then switch it all back to normal right after each event. It will cost a lot and be a major pain, but it is now worth it to me after all of this controversy.

Jobusch, don't worry, I probably wouldn't be challenging you and your co-driver anyway. ;)

[MrPickles]

You should become a member of SCCA as well :)

[00 SS]

Jobusch, don't worry, I probably wouldn't be challenging you and your co-driver anyway. ;)

Well, you beat me and I challenged both of them, and even beat them at a few events.

BTW, you can get 100 octane unleaded pump gas at the Sunoco station at Bandimere. I think there is also a place called Duggins but I don't know where it is.

[Warrtalon]

You should become a member of SCCA as well :)

Who me? I'm a member.

[Warrtalon]

Well, you beat me and I challenged both of them, and even beat them at a few events.

BTW, you can get 100 octane unleaded pump gas at the Sunoco station at Bandimere. I think there is also a place called Duggins but I don't know where it is.

Ah, thanks, Mike! So much for the sneak attack! :p

[00 SS]

Hey, you're welcome. :D

I'm glad to hear your planning on complying with the letter of the rules even if the intent seems unclear to you. There are many rules I think are silly or oversights or whatever but there might be underlying reasons I don't know about. For instance, I run SM because my sub frame connectors are not legal in ESP, nor is my aftermarket differential cover. That's right, the cover. What possible performance advantage could the cover provide? All it does is reinforce the housing to help the rear end live longer. But, illegal is illegal so I run SM were all my parts are well within the rules. Locally the class is a blast, but I get my butt handed to me against national level competition like our own Bob Tunnel who has run SM at nationals (at least) the last two years. Check the Denver tour results from last year.

[Warrtalon]

Yeah, I hear about good ole Bob everywhere I go online. The Evo guys are quite familiar with Mr. Tunnell.

Yeah, I don't expect to be competitive at any national level. I was surprised to be competitive regionally, because the only SCCA I've ever done was the NE Divisional, and the cars in SM made you and I look like little Hot Wheels toys. They were 100% dedicated race cars that barely resembled their original form. I was in A-stock getting my butt handed to me by S2000s, so I know I couldn't have even been top 20 in SM. Only difference between then and now is I have some more power mods, but no change in suspension and only a better set of Kumhos (V710 vs V700).

Btw, HOLY CRAP! Our local SM guys did pretty well in finishing 4-7 (tough luck, Mike, being so close to a trophy), but while you 4 locals were within a few seconds of each other, there's Bob a full _9_ seconds ahead. Wow.

[00 SS]

710's make a huge difference. I used to run 700's as well so I know exactly how much they are worth. HP is a good thing to have around here. Some of our courses tend to be bigger and faster than they are in many other areas, more like the nationals courses. Not that handling and braking aren't just as important as they are anywhere else. But when the altitude eats 20-25% of your power, having a little extra seems to help quite a bit.

My car is no where near a fully built SM car either and it's basically the opposite of yours. I have several suspension mods, but no engine mods. Infact, there are many things I could still do that would be legal in ESP. But I realy don't have the desire to turn my SS into a dedicated race car. Someday I will build a dedicated car, but not this one.

[00 SS]

Btw, HOLY CRAP! Our local SM guys did pretty well in finishing 4-7 (tough luck, Mike, being so close to a trophy), but while you 4 locals were within a few seconds of each other, there's Bob a full _9_ seconds ahead. Wow.

Yeah, I would have beat David if I had my head on straight on Saturday. I beat him by over a 1/2 second on Sunday. But yes, Bob is in a completely different league.

[Warrtalon]

710's make a huge difference. I used to run 700's as well so I know exactly how much they are worth. HP is a good thing to have around here. Some of our courses tend to be bigger and faster than they are in many other areas, more like the nationals courses. Not that handling and braking aren't just as important as they are anywhere else. But when the altitude eats 20-25% of your power, having a little extra seems to help quite a bit.

My car is no where near a fully built SM car either and it's basically the opposite of yours. I have several suspension mods, but no engine mods. Infact, there are many things I could still do that would be legal in ESP. But I realy don't have the desire to turn my SS into a dedicated race car. Someday I will build a dedicated car, but not this one.

Do you know your uncorrected WHP/WTQ numbers in the car's current form? I lost 45whp/36wtq after my move to CO with no changes in boost or tuning.

[00 SS]

Uncorrected was 295 rwhp and 296 rwtq. I can't remember the conditions that day and , like and idiot, I didn't write them down. Corrected numbers were 348 rwhp and 349 rwtq. The correction factor was then obviously 1.18. Looks like I lose about 50 hp and 50 ft/lbs as well.

[Warrtalon]

Uncorrected was 295 rwhp and 296 rwtq. I can't remember the conditions that day and , like and idiot, I didn't write them down. Corrected numbers were 348 rwhp and 349 rwtq. The correction factor was then obviously 1.18. Looks like I lose about 50 hp and 50 ft/lbs as well.

I did 296whp/325wtq to all 4 last week at MAC, but my corrected numbers were 370whp/405wtq. It was 80-degrees in the bay with 6% humidity, which made the correction factor 1.25. When I said I lost 45whp/36wtq, I was referring to my uncorrected numbers at sea level. For my turbo'd car, t he SAE correction is inaccurate, so I am only referring to the uncorrected numbers for comparison. After the 296/325 up here, I added cams and a retune, so I'm hopefully back up near 320-330whp and 350-360wtq. I need to go re-dyno again soon to verify.

[00 SS]

I'm surprised that the correction factor was that high that day. The barrometric pressure must have been unusally low as well. I see why you don't trust the corrected numbers. Where your sea level runs done with a correction factor of at or near 1.0? You would've needed a 1.08 correction factor at sea level to get all the numbers to make sense. It's seems odd that your numbers don't work out though. Most of the FI cars I've seen do come out pretty close, I don't know why yours doesn't.

[Warrtalon]

I'm surprised that the correction factor was that high that day. The barrometric pressure must have been unusally low as well. I see why you don't trust the corrected numbers. Where your sea level runs done with a correction factor of at or near 1.0? You would've needed a 1.08 correction factor at sea level to get all the numbers to make sense. It's seems odd that your numbers don't work out though. Most of the FI cars I've seen do come out pretty close, I don't know why yours doesn't.

Well, we've found that the correction factor for Turbo'd cars aren't close at all, because the SAE on a Dynojet is designed for N/A cars (including supercharged ones). My uncorrected numbers at 500' were 341whp/361wtq, but the SAE corrected numbers were 333whp/353wtq. These in no way correlate to the correction factor up here. I made sure to do both on a Dynojet in order to get as close a comparison as possible.

[ianacole]

I have seen some questions regarding MAC's correction factors on some of the other forums around town. I got a 1.23 correction factor last May out there.

[LoCore]

Yeah, I would have beat David if I had my head on straight on Saturday. I beat him by over a 1/2 second on Sunday.

Choker. I demand you get your act straightened up and give me some real competition this year. :D

[00 SS]

Be careful what you wish for. Although I might end up running FS alot this year to cut down on tire costs. Keeping both cars in racing rubber is costing me about $2000 a year not to mention the additional maintenence. On the othe hand if I can sell my Jeep, I'll have enough money to continue to campaign two cars.

Know anybody that wants a rock crawler?

[ianacole]

Is that the one listed on CL with the trailer?

I know what I'm wishing for this upcoming season :D

[00 SS]

I haven't advertised it yet. It's an 89 Wrangler with 36's, a custom coil over front suspension, spring over rear, custom driveshafts, 44's front and rear with detroit lockers and 4.88's, a custom cage, winch, 3 tops and custom engine driven air compressor that will run air tools. It also has the Mopar fuel injection conversion on a rebuilt 258, rebuilt tranny and transfer case with a fixed rear output conversion.

[ianacole]

Sounds like a hoss...I too had to sell my 4x4 Monster to fund my racing. I had an '81 Toyota PU on 35's. Pretty much the only things original were _most_ of the body and the frame.

[LoCore]

I haven't advertised it yet. It's an 89 Wrangler with 36's, a custom coil over front suspension, spring over rear, custom driveshafts, 44's front and rear with detroit lockers and 4.88's, a custom cage, winch, 3 tops and custom engine driven air compressor that will run air tools. It also has the Mopar fuel injection conversion on a rebuilt 258, rebuilt tranny and transfer case with a fixed rear output conversion.

If you're seriously thinking about selling it, check in with Grant Barclay, who is well connected in the rock crawler community.

[Clay Turner]

The latest edition of Fastrack, the SCCA’s newsletter, contains the ruling of the SEB on alcohol injection: You can see it in the SCCA Garage, the May 2006 issue:

HTTP://www.scca.com/garage

Page 19, under Solo Technical Bulletins: “1. All: Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles unless it is specified for this use by the OEM.”