Harness bar vs. Roll bar

[Jarod]

I was wondering what the SCCA's stance is against this. Im looking into a bucket seat and a harness for my car. I think a roll bar would be over kill. But with a harness bar, the SCCA officials might get upset saying that if I roll over, nothing will protect me.

Any opinions on this?

[arniecoleman]

From the Rule Book (which everyone should download from www.rmsolo.org or www.scca.com and read)(bold text is mine):

3.3.1 Driver Restraints
Seat lap belts are required in all cars, and must be installed in cars
with passive restraint systems that do not include a lap belt. Installation
and the use of shoulder belts or harnesses is strongly recommended,
however non-factory upper body restraints may only be used in open cars, cars with targa-tops in the open position, or cars
with T-tops in the open position when two conditions are met:
a. The roll structure must meet either the requirements of Appendix
C or Section 18 of the GCR.
b. The top of the roll structure may not be below the top of the
driver?s helmet when the driver is in the normal driving position.

For precisely the reason you stated, a harness is not allowed in your car without a roll bar.
________
smoke kills (http://smokekills.net/)

[jhadler]

You can use a harness if you have the T-tops locked in place.

The rule may not make too much sense, but it is the rule.

-Josh2

[Jarod]

Cool, Thanks Arnie and Josh.

[Mark C]

The rule may not make too much sense, but it is the rule.

-Josh2


Actually, in a car without a roll bar/cage a harness is more dangerous than standard belts when considering a rollover. While a rollover may be unlikely, if it were to happen the harness would keep you perfectly upright to be squished. Standard belts allow you to displace as the roof (or lack of roof in open cars) crushes. It would seem from the rules that this is the intent of keeping cars from running a harness without the adequate roll protection. Why only open cars are restricted I think makes little sense, although I have little experience with the roll-worthy nature of stock cars.

-Mark

[jhadler]

2 points...

1) I was refering to the fact that while you couldn't wear a harness in an open T-top car, if you clip the T-tops in place, you can. Makes no sense. Like a flimsy glass or plastic panel is going to make that much of a difference. The rule was changed recently, previously it allowed harnesses in all but open cars. Open cars as being defined by convertible cars. Targas and T-tops were (and strangely enough), and are still considered closed cars. That's the part of the rule makes no sense.

2) The argument of the driver being able to displace sideways in the event of a rollover is old. And lately has been shown that the reverse is true. A harness is better in nearly every kind of accident, and in nearly every kind of car. Where the stock 3-point belt is still better is if you're in a convertible. A car that has no B-pillar at all. So, besides the large numbers of miatas, there are only a handfull of cars that this really applies to.

The amount of motion that a human body experiences in an impact or rollover is considerable. And even in a 5-point harness the body can move quite far as the belt (and torso) flex under the load. In a factory 3-point belt, the amount of motion the body experiences is dramatic.

Just my $0.02... But the rules, if we agree with them or not, are the rules....

-Josh2

[Mark C]

Thats interesting. Where can i find the recent information regarding the harness vs. standard belts?

-Mark

[JHixon]

I really like the harness, it holds you in the seat so well, you don't even have to think about it. Get it tightened down and you become part of the car, not a passenger and you don't have to spend any energy trying to stay in the seat.

[aurorasti]

I have been watching this thread for a while now. At an event, I wear my 5-point harness. Maybe it's buttdyno, but I feel like I can concentrate more on driving and less on staying in the seat. On the street, I wear my regular oe belt. The 5-point is just too much of a pain to get into and incase something does happen, the EMT's may not necessarily know who to unlatch the system. My $.02

[jhadler]

Believe me, if you're in a situation where an EMT is extricating you from your car, the harness latch isn't gonna slow 'em down a bit. They'll cut it without thinking twice. And if they've gotta cut you out of the car, the last thing you have to worry about is saving the harness.

The main drag with a 5 point is the hassle of having to undo it in the event I need to turn around when backing up. It's not that big a deal to get into and out of the harness. But probably wouldn't be that comfy in a long trip. Short trips, fine. Long trips? Hmmm...

Anyway, look into Schroth, they make a 4 point harness that's on an inertia reel. Really easy to get into and out of. I liked it when I had one way back when. Doesn't hold as tight as a true racing harness, but it was way better than the stock belt... Kept me in my seat when I went turtle...

-Josh2

[Eric Pollock]

It's not smart to wear the 5 point harness while just driving on the road. In case you flip your car, you need to wear your oe seat belt so you can duck down incase of the roof collasping on your head.

[jhadler]

Well, I'm not one to get into a point-counterpoint argument. But a harness has been shown to be better in nearly every kind of accident. Yes, if you're in a high speed rollover, there is a chance that the A-pillar might collapse in on you. But if you're involved in an impact that hard, and you're just sitting in a stock 3-point belt, you're going to experince a considerable amount of movement. That movement will more than likely result in impacting something else. The steering wheel, the dash, the roof. OE 3-pt belts are the bare minimum that the DOT and car manufactures will go for. There are few, if any, modern cars that cannot stay intact in the event of a rollover. Having rolled a car, I can say that while the A-pillar did deform, it came no where near to intruding on the driver (me). It did exactly what it was supposed to do, absorb energy, and stay intact at the same time. Not to say that it can't happen. But most modern cars are designed to keep that A-pillar intact.

Sure, if you're in a convertible, then that A-pillar is gonna fold over down to the door sill (seen it happen). That's an important exception: cars with minimal roll protection. But a modern coupe or sedan has sustantially better rollover and impact protection than cars from even 20 years ago (the car I rolled would have been 20 years old this year, RIP).

Short of it is, the argument of the driver being able to displace sideways in the event of a rollover is old and outdated. Newer studies have shown that 5 pt restraints are better than 3 pt in nearly every situation.

-Josh2